U-Ilan Pappe usanda kushicilela incwadi entsha yezingxoxo noNoam Chomsky, futhi yahlelwa nguFrank Barat, ebizwa ngokuthi. EPalestine. UPappe ungumqondisi we-European Center for Palestine Studies futhi ungumbhali wezincwadi eziningi, ikakhulukazi Ukuhlanzwa Kwezizwe zasePalestine. Wazalelwa kwa-Israyeli eminyakeni engu-60 edlule washiya iNyuvesi yaseHaifa ngo-2007 ukuthatha isikhundla eNyuvesi yase-Exeter eNgilandi ngemuva kokuthi ecele ukuthi idube i-Israel futhi umongameli wesikole wamcindezela ukuba esule, kuyilapho abanye bemsabisa yena mathupha. Ngaxoxisana noPappe ngocingo ngo-Ephreli. Imibuzo emine yokugcina engiyithumele kuye nge-imeyili, futhi wayiphendula ngendlela.
U. Enye yezindida ozisho ekuqaleni kwencwadi igebe phakathi kombono womhlaba mayelana nesimo sakwa-Israel/Palestine, esihambisana nayo, kanye nombono wezikhulu, ongaguquki. Chaza lokhu.
Ngicabanga ukuthi ngaqaphela lokhu kudideka lapho sengazi ukuthi kubaluleke kangakanani ukuguquguquka emphakathini noma emibonweni yomphakathi. Ngamanye amazwi, lapho uqonda ukuthi isimo sengqondo esisha ngo-Israyeli akusona esiseceleni noma esonakele uhlangana naso yonke indawo ngokuzumayo– phakathi kwabantu abaziyo, phakathi kwabantu abanolwazi oluyingxenye kuphela, futhi– kuzwakala kulula– kodwa cishe noma yikuphi. umuntu ohloniphekile ohlangana naye entshonalanga unombono ocacile we-Israel/Palestine onamazinga ahlukahlukene olwazi noma ukuzibophezela. Kunomqondo woshintsho olubalulekile, futhi ungalindela ukuthi lolu shintsho luzozibonakalisa emithonjeni yezindaba evamile noma kwezombusazwe, uma kungenjalo ngezizathu zangempela, ngenxa yezizathu zezombangazwe, ngoba kuyindaba ebalulekile kubavoti bakho.
Okwangimangaza kakhulu, futhi nangemva kokuhlaselwa okunyantisayo okuthathu eGaza, 2008-2009, 2012, futhi kwafinyelela umvuthwandaba ngokuhlaselwa ehlobo, umphumela okhulayo usashiye ipolitiki evamile endaweni efanayo ababekuyo eminyakeni engama-20 edlule. Ngikuthola kudida lokho ukusho okuncane.
Q. Ithathe isikhathi esingakanani le nqubo emphakathini?
Ngiye ngabona ukushintsha kwemibono yomphakathi kakhulu noma ngaphansi kusukela ngempi yesibili yaseLebanon, ngo-2006. Ngingusomlando, ngakho ngiyazi ukuthi lezi zinqubo zithatha isikhathi ukuvuthwa. Futhi empeleni akubalulekile kangako ukuthola ukuthi ziqhuma nini, kubaluleke kakhulu ukuthola ukuthi zikhula nini.
Sekuyisikhathi eside ivuthwa. Impela ngemva kwe-intifada yokuqala ngo-'87, ezinye zedemoni zamaPalestine zasuswa. Futhi ubunjalo bangempela bobugebengu bakwa-Israel bembulwa njengoba singena enkathini ye-inthanethi, ngakho-ke ngemva kuka-2006 uguquko lwalusobala futhi lubonakala nakuba lwalungabathinti abakhethekile abavamile.
Q. Uzimisele kangakanani?
Hhayi-ke ngingaba yi-subjective, kodwa angigcini nje ngokuyishiya kumbono wami. Ngizamile ngempela ukukufaka njengengxenye yocwaningo lwami, ngempela ngisebenzisa Isikhungo sami [saseYurophu] Sezifundo ZasePalestine, esasungulwa ngo-2007, ukulandela lezi zinto ngosizo lwabafundi bami. Ngakho-ke angicabangi ukuthi ngiwela ogibeni lokucabanga izifiso…. Kucace kakhulu, ikakhulukazi uma unquma ukuhlala emphakathini wasentshonalanga.
Q. Umbono womphakathi e-Europe ungaphambi kwe-US, nokho, akunjalo?
Ngokuqapha okuncane lapha-ngoba womabili amazwekazi, futhi ukujwayelekile akunaki ukuhlukahluka-imvamisa sikhuluma ngombono owodwa womphakathi onolwazi olungcono, owaseYurophu, futhi ozizwa ebambe iqhaza kakhulu ezenzakalweni hhayi ePalestine kuphela kodwa naPhakathi. IMpumalanga njengengxenye yendawo yabo eseduze. Futhi ngokuqinisekile uyezwa okuthile okungekho embonweni womphakathi waseMelika, futhi lokhu kuyicala. Umbono womphakathi waseMelika awunalwazi kangako, ngisho naphakathi kwalabo baseMelika abaguqukile; umuzwa wokuphuthuma awumkhulu njengaseYurophu; akukho ukusondela kwendawo; futhi kuncane kobunzima becala.
Futhi ekugcineni kufanele uhlukanise yomibili imiphakathi emigqeni eqondile noma evundlile. Ijubane loshintsho eYurophu liyashesha, ijubane e-US libaluleke kakhulu.
Q. Ngabe i-elite edifice inakekelwe kanjani?
Enye yezindlela ezinkulu yizo zonke izinhlobo zokunxenxa. Ngisebenzisa igama elithi indawo yokwamukela izivakashi ngencazelo evamile ngangokunokwenzeka hhayi ngendlela ejwayeleke kakhudlwana nencane inkomba yaseMelika yokunxenxa abantu ngakho-ke kungathatha uhlobo oluhlukile e-Europe futhi ngaleyo ndaba ezindaweni ezifana ne-Afrika, i-China ne-India. Isibonelo esihle i-Australia lapho umphakathi wamaJuda uyiphesenti elilodwa kuphela labantu futhi unxenxa u-Israyeli ngokungakhathali. Ungumphakathi ocebile ngakho-ke wasebenzisa umnikelo wezezimali, ngokulingana, eqenjini ngalinye kulawa amabili amakhulu. I-dividend icacile. Ngenkathi uNdunankulu wase-Australia wangaphambili, u-Julia Gillard, ekhethwa angimangalanga ukuzwa ukuthi enkulumweni yakhe yokuqala, wafaka nokusekelwa kwe-Australia kwe-Israel njengenye yezinsika ezine zezinqubomgomo ze-Australia zangaphandle nezokuphepha. Ngakho-ke kuhulumeni waseCanberra -amakhilomitha ukusuka kwa-Israyeli, kuzo zonke izindawo izwe lamaJuda elikhathazeke kakhulu ngezokuphepha. Lokhu kubonisa ukuqina kwesakhiwo. Kuyisakhiwo esakhelwe phezu kokutshalwa kwezimali, ukufumbathisa, izinsongo kanye nolwazi olungaqondile.
Ngicabanga ukuthi esinye isici i-Islamophobia, yohlobo oseludlangile ezindaweni ezithile entshonalanga. I-Islamophobia ibonakala ingathinti kakhulu, noma inkathazo, umphakathi waseNtshonalanga, kodwa ikhathaza, ngokweqiniso noma ngokuchwensa, izikhulu zezombangazwe. Isibonelo esihle salokhu imboni yezikhali zempi, okuyiyona edinga impi yobushokobezi ukuze ivuselele umugqa wayo wokukhiqiza, ukusungulwa, ukuthengisa, nendawo yayo emhlabeni. I-Islamophobia iphikisana nanoma yiziphi izithiyo noma imingcele enengqondo kakhudlwana, futhi owazi kancane kancane, okaputeni balo mboni bangase baphendule - ngokuqinisekile endabeni yaseGaza abanye babo babeyoba nemicabango emincane kodwa babezitshela ukuthi banikeze izikhali ukuze banqobe okubi kakhulu. uhlobo lobuSulumane obushisekayo, futhi hhayi, njengoba kwakunjalo, ngenxa yokuqothulwa kohlanga.
Okokugcina, esimweni sonya olusigubuzele, iSyria, iYemen, i-Iraq, i-Egypt– uhlobo lonya luka-Israyeli, ukuhlupheka kwasePalestine kungaba kuncane, emiqondweni yabantu ababandakanyeka ekwenziweni kwenqubomgomo kanye nokwazisa imibono yomphakathi. Bathi, Akekho ongathola isibambo kukho konke, kufanele abe nezinto eziza kuqala. Futhi ngiyabona ukuthi kungani umhleli wephephandaba elihamba phambili laseNtshonalanga noma umbiko wezindaba engakunaki ukubulawa kwezingane ezimbili zasePalestine futhi ancamele ukunaka izenzo zonya ezimbi kakhulu e-Iraq noma eSyria. Noma kunjalo ngithanda ukukholisa lo mhleli ukuthi omunye akamshiyi ngaphandle omunye. Kokubili kufanele kubikwe futhi kuxhunywe.
Q. Awu uthini kubo?
Ngizozama ukubakholisa ngezizathu ezimbili ezibalulekile zokuthi kungani kufanele banikeze imicimbi yasePalestine indima ebalulekile. Kunokuxhumana okuqondile phakathi kwekhulunyaka leminyaka yonya luka-Israyeli olubhekiswe kwabasePalestine kanye nokuqubuka kodlame eMpumalanga Ephakathi. Ngisho nodlame olubi kakhulu lusukela esikhathini esedlule samakoloni aseNtshonalanga lapho isisekelo sombuso wamaJuda esikhundleni sePalestine kwaba ubugebengu obubi kakhulu emehlweni ezizukulwane ezizayo. Okuphonselwa inselelo ngobudlova namuhla ukwakhiwa kobukoloniyali bangemva kwempi yomhlaba eyodwa eyakhiwa amandla aseYurophu. Insika eyinhloko yalesi sakhiwo kwakuwubuJuda basePalestine. Awukwazi ukuphikisa kalula ngamalungelo abantu ngaphandle kokusolwa ngokuba yizwe lasentshonalanga kakhulu futhi awukwazi ukuqasha abantu ukuthi badlale imibono yama-Islamist e-purist ngaphandle kokugcizelela ingqikithi yabo ephikisana neNtshonalanga. Ngisho nokuhlukana kwamaShite-Sunni, noma ukuhlaselwa kobuKristu nabancane kuhlotshaniswa nesakhiwo esakhiwe ngamazwe aseNtshonalanga, ngokusekelwe ekuhlukaniseni nasekulawuleni, futhi kufaka phakathi abancane kumakholoni, kanye ne-post-colonilist, isakhiwo sezombangazwe. Ingqikithi yalesi simo sengqondo kwaba ukwesekwa okungenamibandela kweZionism ngezindleko zamaPalestina. Ngakho ukuhlupheka kwasePalestine kuwumphumela wesono sokuqala saseNtshonalanga ngemva kwempi yezwe yokuqala njengoba kunjalo nangezinye izigcawu ezihlasimulisayo kwenye indawo eMpumalanga Ephakathi.
Kunesidingo sokuqonda ukuthi uma ufuna ukuzibandakanya, futhi okungenani ebusweni balo njengomhleli, hlanganisa izinto hhayi nje ngoba ezithakazelisayo kubantu, kodwa ngenxa yokuhlupheka kwabantu, ukuze kuqedwe lokho kuhlupheka, noma ukuze wengeze izwi lakho ngokumelene nayo—futhi ngokuvamile uma amazwe asentshonalanga ngokusebenzisa abezindaba, osopolitiki, kanye nezinhlangano ezizimele ezimele amalungelo abantu, uma ifuna ukubamba iqhaza engxoxweni eyinhloko yalezi zenzo zonya- ngeke yamukelwe njengozakwethu wangempela. kuleyo ngxoxo ngaphandle uma ibamba isikhundla esikhethekile esinike u-Israyeli kule ngxoxo.
Q. Ukhuluma ngezimbangela. Imidiya ayivamisile ukukhuluma nabo. Ufuna bakhulume ngeZionism njengembangela yalokhu kungqubuzana. Kungani?
Izindaba ezimbili zibaluleke kakhulu. Okulula wukuphatha iZayoni njengoba sasiphatha inkolelo yobandlululo eNingizimu Afrika, bese uzibuza ukuthi, ngabe sasiyozihlanganisa nobandlululo eNingizimu Afrika ngaphandle kokuhlanganisa inkolelo yombuso. Besingagxila emigomeni kahulumeni kuphela singanaki umsuka wemigomo? Uma ubuyela emuva ubheka ngesikhathi iNingizimu Afrika isiyizwe elizimele, uma ubheka abezindaba babehlukanisa iNingizimu Afrika ngokuhlasela imibono yobukhosi, inyumbazane, nobandlululo.
Okucace bha kuleli cala ukuthi abezindaba basentshonalanga abazivumeli, mhlawumbe ngenxa yokuzithiba, mhlawumbe ngenxa yengcindezi—abakuvumeli ukwenza okufanayo ku-Israel. Ngisho nesihluku esibi kakhulu sikhishwa emqondweni waso. Uma intatheli ixoxa ngendaba yokuthi kungani kwenzeke leso sihluku, basichaza njengokuziphindiselela kuka-Israel odlameni lwasePalestine. Ubungathanda ukuthi izintatheli ziqonde manje ukuthi i-Israel ayiphindiseli kubantu basePalestine futhi ibadalele izimo ezingabekezeleleki ngokulindela ukusabela okuthile ekucindezelweni - kungaba ukubhidlizwa kwendlu, ukuboshwa ngaphandle kokuqulwa kwecala, ukuphucwa umhlaba futhi kaningi kunalokho, ukubulawa. Udlame luka-Israyeli aluyona indlela yokuziphindiselela yokuphendula ukumelana namaPalestina, cha, kuyindlela eyinhloko lapho umbono weZionist wokuba nePalestine eningi ngangokunokwenzeka, namaPalestina ambalwa kuwo ngangokunokwenzeka, uye wasebenza phakathi neminyaka. .
Izintatheli eziqaphelayo kufanele zibone umehluko phakathi kokucekela phansi izindlu ngoba kubeka engcupheni ukuphepha kwamasosha, nokucekela phansi izindlu njengendlela yokunciphisa isibalo samaPalestine njengengxenye yohlelo olukhulu lwesifunda. Uma ubhekene ne-ideology, unesibopho sokubheka izaba futhi ungakopishi indaba eyimbangela ehlinzekwa yi-Israel.
Ngakho leyo yindaba eyodwa.
Isizathu sesibili sokuthi kungani iZionism kufanele ibe maphakathi nokusakazwa kwabezindaba, nokuthi izindaba ezibalulekile zomlando kufanele kuxoxwe ngazo ukuthi sisekulowo mlando - akusona isahluko esivaliwe okufanele sithakazelise izazi-mlando kuphela. Sikulesi simo esiyindida lapho i-Israel iyizwe lamakoloniyali kanye ne-post colonialist. Muva nje izifundiswa zichaze i-Israel njengezwe lamakoloni - okuchaza ukuthi kungani bekuyiphrojekthi yamakoloni esikhathini esidlule, kodwa esasaqhubeka nanamuhla njengoba iphrojekthi ingakapheleli. Ngakho-ke njengentatheli ubuka isahluko esifanayo somlando esaqala ngasekupheleni kwekhulu le-19 futhi sisaqhubeka nanamuhla. Akukho ukuvalwa okwamanje kulo mlando wamakoloni. Izahluko ezengeziwe zamakholoniyali asendulo, njengeBritish Raj e-India, kufanele kuxoxwe ngazo ezithasiselweni zamasiko zamaphepha noma ezinhlelweni ezikhethekile zomlando ku-TV futhi umuntu angaqonda izintatheli ezikhuluma nge-India namuhla ngokugxila lapha namanje. Lezi izahluko zomlando ezivaliwe. I-Zionist Raj isekhona futhi ngokungafani neBritish Raj, ayihlosile ukudiliza ikoloni futhi ibuyele ekhaya, ifuna ukuthi ikoloni ihlanzwe kubantu bakubo.
Okokugcina, ukubhekana nodaba oluyinhloko, ikakhulukazi endabeni ye-European Media, kusiphoqa ukuba siqonde izingqimba ezifihlekile zephrojekthi yeZionist kanye nokuzivikela kwayo eNtshonalanga. Uma ngithi sisekuso lesi sahluko sobukoloni ePalestine esaqala ngasekupheleni kwekhulunyaka le-19, angisho nje ukuthi ukuqoqwa kwamakoloni nokuphucwa kwabomdabu kusaqhubeka ngamandla nenjongo efanayo neyakudala. Ngiqonde futhi ngalokhu ukuthi ukuba khona kwamaJuda ePalestine, kwaba futhi kuseyisixazululo saseYurophu sombuzo wamaJuda. AmaJuda acishe abhujiswa eYurophu phakathi nempi yezwe yesibili futhi esikhundleni sokuwahlanganisa obala kabusha eYurophu, umqondo wokuwathumela ePalestine, ngesibusiso samaZayoni, wayikhulula iYurophu ekubhekaneni nalokho okwakwenziwe hhayi kumaJuda kuphela kodwa. nakwabanye abayingcosana nangempi yezwe yesibili. Lapho ungavalwanga endaweni yamaJuda eYurophu, awazi ukuthi ungabhekana kanjani ngendawo yamaSulumane eYurophu. Ingabe manje bazobheka izwe lamaSulumane endaweni ethile ekude neYurophu esikhundleni sokwamukela ukuhlukahluka kwamasiko nokuhlukahluka njengendlela yokuphila?
Olunye uhlangothi lwalolu hlamvu ukuthi i-Israel nePalestine yindawo lapho izifiki ezingamaJuda zibusa khona abantu bomdabu basePalestine esikhundleni sokuhlala eduze kwabo. Ngakho-ke lapho u-Israyeli esasakaza umbono wokuthi iyizwe lawo wonke amaJuda, uphendula kokubili esifisweni esimelene namaSemite sokuhlanza imiphakathi yamaKristu ebukhoneni bamaJuda futhi ngesikhathi esifanayo ephika amalungelo amaPalestina ePalestine noma amalungelo noma ubani owafika noma osePalestine futhi akayena umJuda. Ngosuku lwe-Independence, emcimbini omkhulu, izikhulu zamanxusa zihlonipha lo mbono esidlangalaleni futhi ukuze umhlaba wonke ubone - ngaphezu kokungazi kunokusongela, umuntu angacabanga.
Okokugcina, iZionism idala izinkinga ezintsha emiphakathini yamaJuda namuhla, ngoba umbuso wamanje wakwa-Israel umemezela ngokucacile, into i-Labour Zionist eyayiqaphela ukuthi ingayenzi, ukuthi imele amaJuda noma yikuphi lapho ekhona. Ngakho-ke uma lo mbuso wenza isihluku kubantu basePalestine, futhi amaJuda emhlabeni wonke engakuphonseli inselele ukusho kwawo ukuthi awamele, abonakala esekela lezi zenzo zonya. Le ndlela yokucabanga ayikho nhlobo kwabezindaba zaseNtshonalanga.
Q. Ngihlobene nalokho njengohlobo lwentshisekelo lwaseMelika, kanye nomJuda. Impi yase-Iraq kanye ne-neoconservatives yayiyinkinga enkulu kimina mathupha ngemva kokuba umfowethu engitshele iphephandaba lakhe lamaJuda ukuthi le mpi izoba yinhle ku-Israyeli.
Hhayi-ke lokhu kungenzeka kuyashintsha. Muva nje ngihlangane neqembu lamaZionists akhululekile e-UK ayekhathazeke kakhulu ngale nkinga.
Q. Nini?
Ezinyangeni ezimbili noma ezi-3 ezedlule. Babengakaze bangimeme ngaphambilini. Ngazibuza ukuthi kungani befuna ukuxhumana nabo manje. Engikuqondayo ukuthi bebengakhathazeki kakhulu ngabantu basePalestine futhi bekhathazekile kakhulu ngokuthi kungenzeka ukuthi umbimbi lwabo, ukuxhumana kanye nokuzibophezela kwabo ezweni lakubo, abanomuzwa weqiniso, kungatshazwa futhi kuphonselwe inselelo. Babevame ukuzibheka njengengxenye ephilayo nebalulekile yomphakathi futhi uhlobo olusha lweZionism olushunyayelwa u-Israyeli lwenza ukungabaza ngale ndima. Ngihlabeke umxhwele ukuthi ibakhathaza kakhulu kune-radicalism yamaSulumane u-Israyeli athi yiyona nto ebakhathaza kakhulu. Bayaqonda ukuthi uma uNetanyahu ebabiza ukuthi beze kwa-Israel ngoba isinagoge laseLondon lahlaselwa, ngisho nangamaMuslim athukuthele, futhi abasho lutho ekuphenduleni, bangaba njengokwamukela lo mqondo, futhi uma bephikisana nawo, bazokwenza. bathathwe njengabamelene namaZionists.
Q. Ucabanga ukuthi abanye balaba bantu bazoba amaZionists akhuthele?
Nakanjani. Inqobo nje uma ninezikhulu zezombangazwe ezihlakaniphe kakhulu kwa-Israyeli, amaZayoni ezisebenzi, ayehlakaniphe kakhulu futhi ehlakaniphe kakhulu, futhi ayengeke abize amaJuda ukuba ahambe futhi eze kwa-Israyeli.
Q. Yebo uBen-Gurion wafinyelela lokho kuqonda emuva ngo-1950 noma ngaphezulu.
Ngicabanga ukuthi isinqumo sesikhungo kanye nelungelo kwa-Israyeli lokugxila ku-neo-Zionism, ukuvuselela lokho abakubona njengombono we-Zionist kanye nohlelo lwenani, futhi ukugxila hhayi nje isiphetho samaJuda kwa-Israyeli, kodwa kuwo wonke amaJuda. emhlabeni, wadala isilo. Bakha usongo olungekho lwempilo yamaJuda eYurophu, olungekho, futhi manje sebelukholelwa ngokwabo. Ingxenye yendaba abayiqambile ukuthi ukuhlasela okunzima kowokufika waseNyakatho Afrika eFrance kumJuda ongokwenkolo kanye nempi ye-Hamas yokusinda kuyingxenye yomkhankaso omusha womhlaba wonke wokulwa namaSemite wokubhubhisa amaJuda (ngokusekelwa Kwesokunxele).
Ngesonto eledlule ngosuku lwe-Shoah, ubone ezinye zezazi ezibaluleke kakhulu ezweni ziletha kumabonakude nasemsakazweni uhlobo lwencazelo yesakhiwo yalokho abakubiza ngokuthi 'i-anti-Semitism entsha': ukuhlanganisa ndawonye i-anti-Semitism yase-Europe yakudala, egxile ekulweni nobuJuda. Isonto, ubuNazi, ubushokobezi bamaSulumane kanye nenhlangano ye-BDS. Abagcini nje ngokusebenza ndawonye, bonke bayingxenye yesahluko esisodwa somlando okungenzeka ukuthi sisukela kuKristu uqobo. Amagagasi ngemva kwamagagasi wonke ayeqondiswe kumaJuda, futhi leli elinye nje igagasi.
Q. Izazi zisho lokho ngempela?
Yebo. Ngakho lamaJuda kuyodingeka asho okuthile. Kuzofanele baphume ebhokisini bathi– Ngabe usho ngempela ukuthi kuzoba nesibhicongo sesibili eLondon esizolethwa u-Omar Barghouti, uRoger Waters (Pink Floyd), uDavid Irving, neo-Nazis eJalimane futhi i-Amir ye-Islamic State? Ngeke kube lula ngalawa maJuda ukuphikisa lokhu kuhlotshaniswa kwempi okuqanjiwe - kukhiqizwe umbuso wemibono, amandla enuzi, umbuso wezobuchwepheshe obuphezulu futhi ophethe ibutho elinamandla eMpumalanga Ephakathi. Lesi yisimo esiyingozi uma umbuso onamandla kangaka wenza izinsolo ezinjalo. Uma le hysteria ikhiqizwa uprofesa we-nutty eyunivesithi ye-Ivy League lokhu kuyinto eyodwa, kodwa uma isakazwa abantu abanokufinyelela inkinobho ebomvu engase iqalise enye ibhomu yaseGaza noma ngokumelene neTehran, khona-ke kufanele sesabe ngalokhu. isimo, kakhulu kunanoma yisiphi isimo esisibikezele ngezinhlelo zesikhathi esizayo ze-Iran noma iNorth Korea.
UMBUZO
Yebo bayaqonda ukuthi u-Israyeli waba yindawo esabekayo kangakanani. Iminyaka eminingi, babekwazi ngempela ukuvala amehlo abo futhi bavale izindlebe zabo, njengezinkawu ezintathu ezidumile, futhi bazitshela, lokhu kuyinto efanelwe thina maJuda, asifanelwe nje indawo yethu lapha kodwa nezwe lamaJuda. Mhlawumbe bathenge uhlobo lomshwalense – uma kwenzeka into embi, ikhona indawo esingaya kuyo. Kodwa-ke, uma manje sebetshelwa inkampani yomshwalense ukuthi indlu yakho isishisiwe, kuyilapho behlala kuyo ngokuthula - bayaqaphela ukuthi ikusasa labo kanye nesiphetho sabo sibhekene nabadayisi bomshwalense abanomsoco nabashisekayo.
Q. Futhi izikhonkwane zikhulu kakhulu.
Kulungile
Q. Uthi encwadini yakho ukuthi lo mzuzu uwubizo lokuvuka lwamaZayoni elikhululekile. Kungani zibalulekile?
Bayingxenye ebaluleke kakhulu ye-elite edifice. Yibo abanikeze izizathu zokuziphatha zokuhlukunyezwa kwamaPalestine nokuhlupheka kwabo. Yibo ababiza izenzo zonya zakwa-Israel njengezenzo zokuzivikela, eziphoqelelwe kuma-Israel amadolonzima (njengoba uGolda Meir asho, ngeke siwaxolele amaPalestine ngalokho asiphoqa ukuba sikwenze kuwo). Bayisihlangu 'esiphucukile' 'esikhanyisiwe' sobuqaba obusemhlabeni. Futhi manje kunemifantu esihlangu, futhi sidinga imifantu esihlangu, lokho kubaluleke kakhulu. Sesiqala ukubona ukuqhekeka, ngoba lesi yisikhathi solwazi futhi ungabona ngemifantu iqiniso leqiniso, futhi lelo qiniso liwukuthi u-Israyeli akanakuba yizwe lamaJuda kanye nentando yeningi, awukwazi ukuba kokubili umhlali okhanyiselwe. futhi ubambe ngesikhathi esifanayo. Mhlawumbe bayaqaphela ababesiza ekufihleni futhi babhekene nomzuzwana weqiniso.
Q. Ubona kuphi ukuqhekeka?
Okuthile okuthakazelisayo okwenzeka ekuhlaselweni kokugcina eGaza kwakuwukuthi amaZionists akhululekile ayezimisele ukusho, noma yini eyenziwa yiHamas, lokho u-Israyeli akwenzayo akufanelekile. Ngisebenzisa i-Haaretz njengendawo eyinhloko yalokhu kungabaza okusha ngenxa yokuthi yamukelwa ibhodi labahleli kanye nengxoxo enkulu ehlobo (hhayi nje abasolwa abavamile abafana no-Gideon Levy noma u-Amira Hass). Lena kwakuyi-ajenda futhi eyamukelwa izinkulungwane ezimbalwa ezabonisa ngesikhathi sokuhlasela ehlobo eledlule egameni lokuhlupheka kwezinhlangothi zombili. Kwakukude kakhulu kulokho engangingathanda ukuthi bakubonise ngokumelene nakho, kodwa kwakuhluke kakhulu ekusekeleni kwabo kwangaphambili emigomeni enonya emelene neGaza. Njengokungathi balahlekelwe ukunwebeka kwamazwi kanye nokugebenga okwabenza bakwazi ukukhathalela abantu kanye namaSiyoni ashisekela izwe. Ikhono labo lokukhuluma lehluleka. Abakwazanga ukukhiqiza, njengasesikhathini esedlule, umbhalo ochaza ukuthi u-Israyeli useyintando yeningi uma kubhekwa lokho akwenzayo hhayi eGaza kuphela, kodwa uma kubhekwa indlela ephatha ngayo abafuna ukukhoseliswa, uma kubhekwa umthetho wobandlululo kusukela ngo-2000 kanye nesihluku hhayi kuphela. ngokumelene namaPalestine, kodwa ngokumelene nawo uqobo, ama-liberal.
Ngaphezu kwalokho, kubonakala sengathi amabutho ezombangazwe abusayo, abashisekeli bobuzwe nenkolo, abasawadingi. Abaholi babo bangaphambili abanjengoBegin kanye noSharon bobabili babecabanga ukuthi bayabadinga, futhi uNetanyahu wakwenza kanye, wayefuna uShimon Peres amele ubuso obunengqondo ka-Israyeli, kuyilapho enza lokho ayefisa ukukwenza phansi. Abanye babo bangase bangabe besafuna ukusetshenziswa njengesihlangu njengoba kwakunjalo ngaphambili. Lokhu kuyiqiniso ngempela mayelana ne-Zionist ekhululekile ngaphandle kwa-Israyeli (bheka i-J-Street) futhi kuzoba yiqiniso ngabo ngaphakathi kwa-Israyeli. Ngifuna ukwengeza kwa-Israel awekho amaningi ngakho ukubaluleka kwawo ekwandiseni imifantu kuncane endaweni futhi kubaluleke kakhulu ngaphandle kwe-Israel.
Q. Mayelana nokwakha inhlangano, uyathanda ukukhulumisana kanye nezingxoxo nala maZionist aphendukayo, ukubavumela ukuthi bahlenge ubuso?
Ake ngichaze. Nginephepha le-litmus, ngine-yardstick, engahlulela ngayo ukuzimisela kwami konke ukuzibandakanya. Anginankinga uma bengitshela, ngokwesibonelo, ukuthi bayaphikisana nombono wokuduba u-Israyeli, bese ngithi kubo, Kulungile, ngiyakweseka ukuduba kuka-Israyeli. Esikhathini esedlule lesi sikhundla simise inkhulumomphendvulwano khonapho. Lesi kwakuyisizathu esikhulu sokuxoshwa kwami eNyuvesi yaseHaifa, nokuphela kwengxoxo namaZionist amaningi akhululekile kuhlanganise nomkhwe wami, ngoba ukuduba kuwumugqa obomvu abangeke baweqe. Kodwa lokhu akusewona umugqa obomvu. Ngakho-ke kuyathakazelisa kakhulu. Njengokungathi baxubha amahlombe alabo abayobonakala belungile ekupheleni kosuku (njengabo bonke abelungu namuhla eNingizimu Afrika abathi babengabalandeli be-ANC emakhabetheni). Emazweni aseNtshonalanga, manje bafuna inkhulumomphendvulwano nezishoshovu ezisekela i-Palestine (njengoba kungabonakala ekwakhiweni kwehlumela elisha lenhlangano ye-Hillel kanye nokushintsha kwesimo seminye yemiphakathi yamaJuda emakhempasini aseBrithani).
Q. Badinga umphakathi wasePalestine-solidarity? Kungani?
Benza ngoba bazi kahle kakhulu ukuthi bathenge kangakanani emgqeni we-antisemitic mayelana nokugxeka u-Israyeli, into eyodwa mayelana nomphakathi wobumbano wasePalestine, akuyona into emelene namaSemite, ayiphikisani namaJuda. Eyodwa, ngenxa yokuthi izishoshovu eziningi zingamaJuda futhi zazihlale zikhipha izinto eziphikisana namaSemite ezinhlwini zazo, kanti ezimbili, ziphikisana nomhlaba wonke nokucwasa noma kuphi lapho kuvela khona.
Q. Kodwa angicabangi ukuthi bakhululekile ngathi.
Ngicabanga ukuthi sibona i-Kosherizing yokunyakaza kwe-BDS. Ukuthi empeleni umhlaba ubona ukugcwala kwabantu abahlanyayo kanye nemibono engasile. Lokhu kuyenzeka, ngokungangabazeki: abantu bashiswa bephila, futhi banqunywe amakhanda. Kulo mhlaba, i-BDS pro Palestinian solidarity movement iyiqembu labantu abaphucuzekile, abantu abalula abakholelwa esintwini, abantu abahloniphekile abakholelwa emalungelweni abantu.
Ubungeke ufise ozakwethu abangcono ongakha nabo umhlaba ongcono.
Q. Kungani yayibalulekile inkhulumomphendvulwano noNoam Chomsky? Abantu abaningi emphakathini wobumbano wasePalestine kungenzeka bamthathe njengomuntu ongahlangene nombuzo onikezwe ukuchithwa kwakhe kombono owodwa wezwe kanye ucezu lwakhe kuSizwe lokho kwakugxeka i-BDS.
Nginomuzwa wokuthi uNowam useyikhampasi yezishoshovu eziningi nezifundiswa ezizinikele eNtshonalanga, futhi mhlawumbe nangale kwayo. Ukushuba kwesimo phakathi kwemibono yakhe egxilile emhlabeni jikelele mayelana nokuhleleka komhlaba, i-USA namandla nolwazi jikelele ngakolunye uhlangothi, kanye nesikhundla sakhe esiqashwe kakhulu ePalestine, sasihlale singihlaba umxhwele, hhayi mina kuphela. Ngiyazi ngisho nabantu ababhala incwadi ephelele ngesikhundla sakhe ngePalestine. Ukucacisa lezi zikhundla bekubalulekile kimina kuqala ngoba ube nomthelela omkhulu emsebenzini wami nasekucabangeni kwami. Kodwa ngiphinde ngacabanga ukuthi ukuhlukana kwemibono esinayo kubonisa inkulumo-mpikiswano evamile ngaphakathi kwenhlangano yobumbano namaPalestina, futhi kulokho engingakusho, le mpikiswano nayo manje iyenzeka emphakathini wasePalestine ngokwawo.
Q. Uthi encwadini ukuthi ukufika ekuqondeni kwakho kube uhambo olude, oluphikisana nawe emphakathini wakini kanye nomndeni wakho ngezinye izikhathi. Ungakwazi ukunaba ngalokhu ngokwakho? Bakhona yini abantu emndenini wakho abangasakukhulumisi? Uzihlole isikhathi esingakanani? Futhi lezi zibopho zomphakathi azisebenzi yini njengezibopho zengqondo kumaJuda amaningi, futhi zingathukululwa ngayiphi inqubo?
Yebo kunjalo. Ngikubona njengohambo olungenathikithi lokubuya - uhambo olunqamula i-Rubicon, uma ufuna. Futhi angikhumbuli kahle ukuthi nini, kodwa kwaba khona iphuzu ekuqaleni kwawo-1990 lapho ngazizwa ngikhululiwe ngokuzumayo eZionism njengombono owawulawula zonke izenzo, noma ukubhala noma ukukhuluma enganginakho mayelana no-Israyeli nePalestina. Futhi lapho kungicacela kabuhlungu ukuthi angifuni sabelo kukho, futhi kamuva lapho, lapho ngizizwa ngizibophezele ukulwa nakho, ngaba yingxenye yemibuthano ekude nesondelene yozakwethu, umngane nomndeni.
Ukukwazisa kufanele uqonde ukuthi emuva ngeminyaka yawo-1990, umbuso wawungakhathazeki ngamaJuda aphikisana namaZionist (njengoba kwakunjalo ngezinsuku zaseMazpen ekuqaleni kwawo-1970). Yayithembele emphakathini ukuba ushushise futhi ujezise. Endabeni yami kwathatha izindlela ezimbili: izinsongo zokubulawa mina nomndeni wami kanzima nangonya kanye nokuxoshwa enyuvesi ngontanga yami (ngigqugquzelwa ungqongqoshe wezemfundo ngaleso sikhathi). Ngakho ingxenye yozakwethu nomndeni abangikhulumisi namuhla.
Ngokuqondene nombuzo wakho oqondile: ibanga phakathi kokuqaphela okwenzekayo nokuyichaza - okungukuthi inqubo oyibiza ngokuthi ukuzihlola, yaqhubeka cishe iminyaka eyishumi (esimweni samaZionists amaningi akhululekile angayenza impilo yonke okufanele zibangele izinkinga ezinkulu zezempilo). Okuwukuphela kwendlela yokuzama ukubakholisa iwukuqala ngokungabubukeli phansi ubunzima bokuyeka isikhundla esihloniphekile futhi okwesibili ubatshele ngokuphindaphindiwe ngomqondo wenkululeko kanye nempumuzo umuntu anayo, lapho ungasekho esimweni somqondo. Kufanele ukholwe ukuthi naphezu kweminyaka eminingi yokululaza abantu basePalestine, kusasele kubo ukuthobeka - ngiyakukholelwa lokhu.
Q. Uthi encwadini ukuthi ukwahlukanisa “akunasimilo.” Futhi ukuthi kufanele sitshele abangani bethu basePalestine abeseka amazwe amabili ukuthi kungani benephutha ukwenza kanjalo. Kuthiwani ngempikiswano egcwele igazi ye-rollercoaster/Algeria ngokumelene nezwe elilodwa njengomgomo? Ngabe amaPalestine awavunyelwe ukwesaba izinkinga zaseSyria naseGibhithe? Futhi, uma amaPalestine efuna izwe lasePalestine - ngisho noHaneen Zoabi ungacabanga ukuthi kunemibuso emibili yentando yeningi - kungani ungavumeli?
Ngicabanga ukuthi empeleni i-Algeria iyindaba yomlando ekhombisa ukuthi abekho abantu bomdabu ababengavuma ukuhlukanisa izwe labo nabahlali futhi lesi kwakuyisikhundla esifanele sokuba i-FLN ithathe kanye namaPalestina. Kodwa ngiyaqonda ukuthi usho ukuthini, kunezibonelo eziningi futhi ngaphandle kweMpumalanga Ephakathi ukuthi ebusweni bazo zingasekela ukuhlukaniswa, njenge-Yugoslavia yangaphambili.
Kodwa ngicabanga ukuthi abantu baphambanisa ubuzwe nobuzwe. Izizwe zama-Arab ziyawa ngenxa yokuthi uhlaka lwezepolitiki olwakhiwa umbuso wamakoloni kubo - futhi labo abaqokiwe babo kwezombusazwe ngemuva kwempi yezwe yesibili abazange baphonse inselelo - abakufunayo nje ukuba ababusi ngokwabo balezi zinhlaka zezombusazwe - besekelwe ezintweni ezimbili ezibuthakathaka. izisekelo. Okokuqala, ukuntula noma yikuphi ukuhlonishwa kwamalungelo abantu kanye nomphakathi kanye nokungabi nandaba namandla ezinhlangano zesifunda nezobuhlanga. Ngakho kwabekwa inzalo yozalo noma umbuso wezwe ocindezelayo, ungakunaki kokubili ukuzwela.
EPalestine, isakhiwo esasisikiselwa umbuso wamakoloni sasihluke kakhulu. Yavumela iZionism ukuba ikoloni futhi iphuce iPalestine. Manje siyini isixazululo, ukuvumela ukubuyiswa kwamakoloni nokuphucwa umhlaba ngamaphesenti angamashumi ayisishiyagalombili kuphela? Ngeke kuqede ukungqubuzana. Uma sekuqediwe ukuzwela kuzofanele kuhlonishwe ngaphakathi kwesakhiwo sezepolitiki (futhi mhlawumbe izifiki ezingamaJuda, njengoba kusho u-Azmi Bishara, baba yisizwe ngokwazo).
Q. Ithini incazelo yalesi sitatimende engivame ukusizwa: Ama-Israel angamaJuda angeke akwamukele ukuhlakazwa kombuso wamaJuda, azibophezele kukho; futhi umuntu kufanele akhulume nalawa ma-Israel uma ufuna ukuthola isisombululo kungxabano? Ngicabanga ukuthi uChomsky uyakukholelwa lokhu ngezinga elithile. Impela uNorman Finkelstein uyakwenza. Ingabe lokhu kukhathazeka kuke kukuvimbe? Ngakho uyishintsha kanjani imiqondo yakwa-Israyeli? Ingabe ukushintsha kwemibono ngamaJuda ahlakazekile kwakuzoba nendima ekwehliseni amandla ama-Israyeli?
Okushoyo ukuthi umphakathi wamaJuda ngeke usilahle kalula isikhundla esikhethekile onaso - ufihla isisusa sangempela senkani yawo ngenkulumo yezwe yokusinda. Ngakho-ke inkinga yethu, ukwengeza kulokhu engikushilo njengamanje, ukuthola indlela yokwakha uhlaka olusha lwezepolitiki olwabela kabusha umhlaba, izinsiza namandla embusweni omusha kuphela. Abaqinisekanga ukuthi bazoshabalala - le nkulumo yabaholi beZiyoni be-doomsday basebenzise kalula kunoma yini abafuna ukuyigcina ezandleni zabo - kodwa ukuthi ukugcina amalungelo kuzobashiya esimweni esingapheli sokungqubuzana. ngeke njalo ukunqoba. Ngisho nangempumelelo yabo yezempi kuze kube manje - abantu abasha, abanezinsiza, ababoni isizathu sokuhlala kulolu suku lwanamuhla lwePrussia noma iSparta.
Ngakho kunezindlela ezimbili lapha. Sidinga ukusindisa amaPalestine ekubhujisweni okuqhubekayo futhi ngenxa yalokho asinakho ukunethezeka kokulinda kuze kube yilapho siguqula umqondo wamaJuda wamaJuda. Lokhu kungafezwa kuphela ngezindlela eziphelele ze-BDS kanye nokumelana, ngethemba lokuthi kuyathandwa futhi kungabi nodlame, phansi. Futhi sidinga inqubo ende yokucekela phansi isizukulwane sesithathu sabahlali abazibona bengaphili impilo efanelekile, noma ngabe wonke amandla asezandleni zabo. Iqhaza lamaJuda aphesheya ukusiza ukuhlukanisa ubuZionism nobuJuda ukuze ifosholo - colonialism - ibizwe ngespade.
I-ZNetwork ixhaswa kuphela ngokuphana kwabafundi bayo.
Nikela
1 Amazwana
U-Ilan Pappe wenze amaphuzu akhanya kakhulu mayelana nezimbangela zengxabano yakwa-Israel nePalestine. Usifaka ithemba.