Izinqubomgomo ze-Austerity zisiqhubezela ekuwohlokeni komnotho okuphindwe kabili, kuxwayisa usomnotho wase-US uJoseph Stiglitz. Wahlala phansi noMartin Eiermann ukuze baxoxe ngokucabanga okusha kwezomnotho kanye nomthelela wemali kwezombusazwe.
UmLungu: Eminyakeni emine kuqale inkinga yezimali, uyakhuthazwa yini izindlela izazi zezomnotho ezizame ngazo ukwenza umqondo, kanye nezindlela leyo mibono eye yathathwa ngayo ngabakhi bezinqubomgomo?
Stiglitz: Ake ngihlukanise lokhu ngendlela ethe ukuhluka. Osomnotho bezemfundo babambe iqhaza elikhulu ekubangeleni le nkinga. Amamodeli abo enziwe aba lula ngokweqile, ahlanekezelwa, futhi ashiya ngaphandle izici ezibaluleke kakhulu. Lawo mamodeli anephutha abe esekhuthaza abenzi benqubomgomo ukuthi bakholelwe ukuthi izimakethe zizoxazulula zonke izinkinga. Ngaphambi kwale nkinga, ukube bengingusomnotho ocabanga kancane, bengingajabula kakhulu ukubona ukuthi izifundiswa zinomthelela omkhulu emigomeni. Kodwa ngeshwa lokho kwakukubi emhlabeni. Ngemuva kwesimo esibucayi, ubungathemba ukuthi umsebenzi wezemfundo usushintshile nokuthi ukwenziwa kwenqubomgomo kushintshile nakho futhi kuzoba nokungabaza nokuqapha. Ubungalindela ukuthi ngemva kwazo zonke izibikezelo ezingalungile zesikhathi esidlule, ezombangazwe zaziyofuna ukuba izifundiswa zicabange kabusha izinkolelo-mbono zazo. Ngiphoxekile kakhulu kuwo wonke ama-akhawunti.
I-European: Osomnotho bawabonile amaphutha emodeli yabo kodwa abakaze basebenze ukuwalahla noma ukuwathuthukisa?
Stiglitz: Ngaphakathi kwezemfundo, labo ababekholelwa ezimakethe zamahhala ngaphambi kwenhlekelele basakwenza nanamuhla. Bambalwa abantu abashintshile, futhi ngifuna ukubanika udumo ngokuthi: “Besephutheni. Sikuthathe kancane lokhu noma leso sici samamodeli ethu. ” Kodwa ngokwengxenye enkulu, ukusabela kwakuhlukile. Amakholwa emakethe yamahhala awazange azibuyekeze izinkolelo zawo.
UmLungu: Ngakho-ke ake sibheke isikhathi eside. Ucabanga ukuthi le nkinga izoba nomthelela ezizukulwaneni ezizayo zosomnotho nabakhi benqubomgomo, isibonelo ngokushintsha indlela okufundiswa ngayo okuyisisekelo kwezomnotho?
Stiglitz: Ngicabanga ukuthi ushintsho luyenzeka ngempela kubantu abasha. Abafundi bami abancane abaqondi kahle ukuthi abantu bebengakholelwa kanjani kumamodeli amadala. Kuhle lokho. Kodwa ngakolunye uhlangothi, abaningi babo bathi uma ufuna ukuba isazi sezomnotho, kusafanele ubhekane nazo zonke izinsizwa ezindala ezikholelwa emibonweni yazo engalungile, abafundisa leyo mibono, futhi ulindele ukuthi nawe ukholelwe kuzo. . Ngakho bakhetha ukungangeni kulawo magatsha ezomnotho. Kodwa lapho ngiphoxeke khona nakakhulu ukwenza inqubomgomo yaseMelika. U-Ben Bernanke unikeza inkulumo futhi uthi into efana nokuthi, kwakungekho lutho olungalungile nge-theory yezomnotho, izinkinga zaziyimininingwane embalwa ekusetshenzisweni. Eqinisweni, bekukuningi okungalungile ngethiyori yezomnotho kanye nohlaka lwenqubomgomo oluyisisekelo olwasuselwa kuthiyori. Uma ingqondo yakho iwukuthi akukho okwakungalungile, ngeke ufune amamodeli amasha. Lokho kuwukudumazeka okukhulu.
AbaseYurophu: Kubonakale kunokungaboni ngaso linye phakathi kwabeluleki bezomnotho baka-Obama mayelana nesinyathelo esifanele. Futhi eYurophu, izimiso zezomnotho ezibalulekile njengokugxila ngokuphelele ekukhuleni kwe-GDP ekugcineni sezihlaselwe.
I-Stiglitz: Abanye abenzi benqubomgomo baseMelika bayibonile ingozi “yekhulu kakhulu ukuthi ingahluleka,” kodwa bayidlanzana. EYurophu, izinto zingcono kancane ohlangothini lwe-rhetorical. Osomnotho abanethonya abafana noDerek Turner noMervyn King babonile ukuthi kukhona okungalungile. I-Vickers Commission ihlole kabusha inqubomgomo yezomnotho ngokucabangisisa. Asinayo into enjalo e-United States. E-Germany nase-France, intela yemisebenzi yezezimali kanye nemikhawulo yesinxephezelo somphathi isethebulani. USarkozy uthi ubunxiwankulu abusebenzanga, uMerkel uthi sasindiswa imodeli yezenhlalo yaseYurophu - futhi bobabili bangosopolitiki abadla ngoludala! Amabhange namanje abaqondi lokhu, okuchaza ukuthi kungani sisabona inhloko ye-European Central Bank, uMario Draghi, ephikisana ngokuthi kufanele silahle uhlelo lwezenhlalakahle ngesikhathi uMerkel esho okuphambene ngqo: Ukuthi imodeli yezenhlalakahle asigcina siqhubeka lapho amabhange amakhulu ehluleka ukwenza umsebenzi wawo wokulawula futhi esebenzisa ipolitiki ukuguqula isimo semiphakathi yethu.
I-European: Ukukholelwa kwakho kuthinteke kanjani kule nkinga?
Stiglitz: Angicabangi ukuthi kube noshintsho olubalulekile ekucabangeni kwami. Inhlekelele iqinise izinto ezithile engizishilo ngaphambili futhi yangibonisa ukuthi zibaluleke kangakanani. Ngo-2003, ngabhala ngengozi yokusebenzelana, lapho ukuwa kwebhange elilodwa kungaletha ukuwa kwamanye amabhange futhi kwandise ubuthakathaka besistimu yebhange. Ngacabanga ukuthi ibalulekile, kodwa umqondo awuzange uthathwe ngaleso sikhathi. Ngawo lowo nyaka sibheke izinkinga zama-ejensi kwezezimali. Manje siyabona ukuthi zibaluleke kangakanani lezo zindaba. Ngaphikisa ngokuthi indaba yangempela kumnotho wezezimali imayelana nesikweletu, hhayi ukuhlinzekwa kwemali. Manje wonke umuntu uyabona ukuthi ukuwa kohlelo lwezikweletu kwehlisa amabhange. Ngakho-ke le nkinga yaqinisekisa futhi yaqinisa imicu eminingana yethiyori engangiyihlolile ngaphambili. Isihloko esisodwa manje engisibheka njengesibaluleke kakhulu kunangaphambili umbuzo wokulungiswa kanye nendima yezinhlelo zokushintshisana njenge-Euro ekuvimbeleni ukulungiswa komnotho. Inkinga ehlobene ukuxhumana phakathi kokulungiswa kwesakhiwo kanye nomsebenzi wezomnotho omkhulu. Izehlakalo zale nhlekelele ziye zangikhuthaza ngempela ukuba ngicabange kabanzi ngazo.
I-European: Intela yokuthengiselana kwezezimali ibonakala sengathi ifile ukufa kwezombusazwe eYurophu. Manje, inqubomgomo yezomnotho eYurophu ibonakala ibuswa kakhulu yi-logic of austerity, kanye nokuphoqa amanye amazwe aseYurophu ukuthi afane kakhulu neJalimane.
I-Stiglitz: I-Austerity ngokwayo cishe izoba yinhlekelele. Kuholela ekuwohlokeni komnotho okungaba kubi kakhulu. Cishe kuzokwenza isimo se-Euro sibe sibi nakakhulu. Imiphumela yesikhashana izoba mibi kakhulu eYurophu. Kepha udaba olubanzi lumayelana "nemodeli yaseJalimane." Kunezici eziningi kuyo - phakathi kwazo imodeli yezenhlalo - evumela iJalimane ukuthi ibhekane nesimo esikhulu kakhulu I-GDP ngokunikeza amazinga aphezulu okuvikelwa komphakathi. Imodeli yaseJalimane yokuqeqeshwa kwemisebenzi yezandla nayo iphumelele kakhulu. Kodwa kunezinye izici ezingezinhle kangako. IJalimane iwumnotho othumela ngaphandle, kodwa lokho akukwazi ukuba yiqiniso kuwo wonke amazwe. Uma amanye amazwe enemali enqwabelene yokuthunyelwa kwempahla kwamanye amazwe, aphoqa amanye amazwe ukuthi abe nokushoda kokuthunyelwa kwempahla kwamanye amazwe. IGermany ithathe umgomo amanye amazwe angeke akwazi ukuyilingisa futhi azame ukuwusebenzisa e-Europe ngendlela enomthelela ezinkingeni zase-Europe. Iqiniso lokuthi ezinye izici zemodeli yaseJalimane zinhle akusho ukuthi zonke izici zingasetshenziswa kulo lonke elaseYurophu.
UmLungu: Futhi akusho ukuthi ukukhula komnotho kwanelisa imibandela yokulunga komphakathi.
Stiglitz: Yebo, ngakho-ke kunenye into eyodwa okufanele siyicabangele: Kwenzekani ezakhamuzini eziningi ezweni? Uma ubheka eMelika, kumele uvume ukuthi sehlulekile. Abaningi baseMelika namuhla basesimweni esibi kakhulu kunalokho ababeyikho eminyakeni eyishumi nanhlanu edlule. Isisebenzi sesikhathi esigcwele e-US sibi kakhulu namuhla kunangeminyaka engama-44 edlule. Kuyamangaza lokho - isigamu sekhulu sokuma. Uhlelo lwezomnotho alulethi izidingo. Akukhathalekile ukuthi abantu abambalwa abaphezulu bahlomule kakhulu - lapho iningi lezakhamizi lingekho ngcono, uhlelo lwezomnotho alusebenzi. Kufanele futhi sibuze ngohlelo lwaseJalimane ukuthi ngabe seluzilethile yini. Angizange ngifunde yonke idatha, kodwa umbono wami uthi cha.
UmLungu: Uthini kumuntu ophikisa ngale ndlela: Ukushintsha kwezibalo zabantu kanye nokuphela kwenkathi yezimboni kwenze isimo sezenhlalakahle sangakwazi ukusimama ngokwezimali. Ngeke silindele ukwehlisa isikweletu sethu ngaphandle kokunciphisa izindleko zezenhlalakahle ngokuhamba kwesikhathi.
Stiglitz: Kuwumbhedo lokho. Umbuzo wokuvikelwa komphakathi awuhlangene nesakhiwo sokukhiqiza. Kuhlobene nokubumbana komphakathi noma ubumbano. Yingakho futhi ngigxeka kakhulu ingxabano ka-Draghi e-European Central Bank yokuthi ukuvikelwa komphakathi kufanele kuqedwe. Azikho izizathu zokusekela leyo mpikiswano. Amazwe enza kahle kakhulu eYurophu ngamazwe aseScandinavia. IDenmark ihlukile eSweden, iSweden ihlukile eNorway - kodwa bonke banokuvikeleka okuqinile komphakathi futhi bonke bayakhula. Impikiswano yokuthi impendulo kule nkinga ekhona manje kufanele ibe ukuncipha kokuvikelwa komphakathi iyimpikiswano ye-1% yokuthi: "Kufanele sithathe ingxenye enkulu kaphaya." Kodwa uma iningi labantu lingahlomuli kuphayi wezomnotho, uhlelo luyahluleka. Angifuni ukukhuluma I-GDP futhi, ngifuna ukukhuluma ngalokho okwenzeka ezakhamuzini eziningi.
I-European: Ingabe i-Left yezombangazwe ikwazile ukuchaza lokho kugxeka?
U-Stiglitz: U-Paul Krugman ube namandla kakhulu ekukhulumeni ukugxeka izimpikiswano ezicindezelayo. Ukuhlasela okubanzi kwenziwe, kodwa anginaso isiqiniseko sokuthi kuzwakale ngokugcwele yini. Umbuzo obalulekile njengamanje ukuthi sizibeka kanjani izinga lezinhlelo zomnotho. Bekungakacaciswa ngokugcwele kodwa ngicabanga ukuthi sizoyinqoba lena. Ngisho noKunene useqala ukuvuma lokho I-GDP akusona isilinganiso esihle senqubekelaphambili yezomnotho. Umbono wenhlalakahle yezakhamizi eziningi cishe awusho lutho.
UmLungu: Kimina kubonakala sengathi ingxoxo eningi isemayelana nezilinganiso zezibalo – uma singakali i-GDP, sikala enye into, njengenjabulo noma umehluko wemali engenayo. Kodwa ingabe ikhona into kulezi zingxoxo engeke ibekwe ngokwezinombolo - okuthize mayelana nezindinganiso esizifaka ohlelweni lwethu lwezomnotho?
Stiglitz: Ngokuhamba kwesikhathi, kufanele sibe nalezo zingxoxo zokuziphatha. Kodwa ngiqala ngesisekelo esincane kakhulu. Siyazi ukuthi imali engenayo ayibonisi izinto eziningi esizikhathalelayo. Kodwa ngisho nenkomba engaphelele njengemali engenayo, kufanele sikhathalele ukuthi kwenzekani ezakhamuzini eziningi. Kuhle ukuthi uBill Gates wenza kahle. Kodwa uma yonke imali iye ku-Bill Gates, uhlelo belungekwazanga ukukhishwa njengempumelelo.
I-European: Uma i-Left yezombangazwe ingazange ikwazi ukuchaza ngokugcwele lowo mbono, ingabe umphakathi ukwazile ukugcwalisa igebe?
Stiglitz: Yebo, inhlangano ye-Occupy ibe nempumelelo enkulu ekuletheni leyo mibono phambili ezingxoxweni zezombusazwe. Ngabhala i-athikili ye-Vanity Fair ngo-2011 - "Ku-1%, ngo-1%, ngo-1%" - eyathinta kakhulu abantu abaningi ngoba yayikhuluma nezinkathazo zethu. Imibhikisho efana naleyo eku-Occupy Wall Street iba yimpumelelo kuphela uma bephendula ngalokhu okukhathazayo okwabiwe. Kwakukhona isihloko esisodwa sephephandaba esasichaza amaqhinga amabi wamaphoyisa e-Oakland. Baxoxa nabantu abaningi, kuhlanganise namaphoyisa, athi: “Ngivumelana nababhikishi.” Uma ubuza ngomlayezo, impendulo emangalisayo ibikusekela, futhi ukukhathazeka okukhulu kube ukuthi inhlangano ye-Occupy ayizange iphumelele ngokwanele ekudluliseleni lowo mlayezo.
The European: Sisuka kanjani ekukhulumeni ngokungalingani kwezomnotho siye ekushintsheni okubonakalayo? Njengoba ushilo ekuqaleni, ukuqashelwa kwethiyori kwezinkinga zomnotho ngokuvamile akuhunyushwa kunqubomgomo.
I-Stiglitz: Uma isibikezelo sami mayelana nemiphumela ye-austerity silungile, uzobona umjikelezo omusha wokubhikisha. Sake saba nenkinga ngo-2008. Manje sisonyakeni wesihlanu wezinkinga, futhi asikazixazululi. Akukho ngisho nokukhanya ekugcineni komhubhe. Lapho sifinyelela kuleso siphetho, inkulumo izoshintsha.
The European: Isimo sidinga ukuba sibi ngempela ngaphambi kokuba sibe ngcono?
Stiglitz: Yebo, ngiyesaba.
I-European: Usanda kubhala "ngokubola okungenakuguqulwa" kwe-American Midwest. Ingabe le nkinga iwuphawu lokuthi i-US isiqalile ukuwohloka komnotho okungenakuhlehliswa, nakuba sisabheka izwe njengomdlali wezombusazwe onamandla?
I-Stiglitz: Sibhekene noguquko olunzima kakhulu ukusuka kwezokukhiqiza ukuya emnothweni wezinsizakalo. Sehlulekile ukuphatha lolo shintsho ngokushelela. Uma singalilungisi lelo phutha, sizokhokha inani eliphezulu kakhulu. Kakade, umuntu waseMelika ovamile uhlushwa inguquko ehlulekile. Okungikhathazayo wukuthi sesisungule isimo somnotho esibi kanye nepolitiki embi. Ukungalingani okuningi kwaseMelika kubangelwa ukufuna irenti: Izimali ezisetshenziswa ezempi, ukusetshenziswa kwezempi, ukuthengwa kwempahla, izimboni zokukhiqiza, izidakamizwa. Sinemikhakha ethile yezomnotho emihle kakhulu, kodwa futhi sinezinambuzane eziningi. Umbono onethemba ngowokuthi umnotho ungakhula uma singaziqeda izimuncagazi futhi sigxile emikhakheni ekhiqizayo. Kodwa kunoma yisiphi isifo kuhlale kunengozi yokuthi ama-parasite azoshwabadela izingxenye zomzimba ezinempilo. Ijaji lisaphumile kulokho.
UmLungu: Ingabe okungenani sisiqonde lesi sifo ngokwanele ukuze sinikeze ukwelashwa okufanele? Ikakhulukazi mayelana nokwenziwa kwenqubomgomo kanye nenhlekelele ye-Euro, kubonakala sengathi kuningi ukudubula ebumnyameni.
Stiglitz: Ngicabanga ukuthi inkinga akukhona ukuntula ukuqonda kososayensi bezenhlalo abangenalo isithakazelo. Siyayazi inkinga eyisisekelo, futhi siyawazi umthelela weminikelo yomkhankaso kubakhi benqubomgomo. Ngakho-ke sibhekene nengwadla: Ngoba imali ibalulekile kwezombusazwe, lokho kuholela emiphumeleni lapho imali ibalulekile emphakathini, okwandisa indima yemali kwezombusazwe. Unobuzenzisi kanye nokudumala okwengeziwe ngepolitiki yasephalamende.
I-European: Ingabe ipolitiki isigxile kakhulu emiphumeleni, futhi ingabe ayizweli ngokwanele ezinqubweni eziholela kuleyo miphumela? Umsuka wentando yeningi ubonakala uncike ezindleleni zokubamba iqhaza, hhayi ekusebenzeni ngempumelelo kwezinqubomgomo ezithile.
Stiglitz: Ake ngikubeke ngale ndlela: Abanye abantu bagxeka ngokuthi sesigxile kakhulu ekungalinganini futhi asikhathazekile ngokwanele ngethuba. Kodwa e-United States, nathi siyizwe elinokungalingani okukhulu kwamathuba. Iningi labantu baseMelika liyaqonda ukuthi izinqubo zezombangazwe zokukhwabanisa zidlala emiphumeleni yokukhwabanisa. Kodwa asazi ukuthi singena kanjani kuleso simiso. INkantolo Yethu Ephakeme yaqokwa ngezinzuzo zemali futhi - akumangalisi - yaphetha ngokuthi izintshisekelo zemali zinethonya elingenamingcele kwezombusazwe. Kafushane nje, sibhebhethekisa umthelela wemali, kube nemiphumela emibi emnothweni nasemphakathini.
UmLungu: Lusuka kuphi ushintsho? Ephalamende? Ezifundweni? Ezitaladini?
Stiglitz: Ubukeka emigwaqweni futhi kancane nasezifundweni. Uma ngithi inhloso enkulu yomsebenzi wezomnotho ingiphoxile, kufanele ngifanelekele leso sitatimende. Kube namaqembu aphusha ukucabanga okusha kwezomnotho futhi aphonsa inselelo kumamodeli amadala.
UmLungu: Ubhale ukuthi inselele ukuphendula emibonweni emibi hhayi ngokulahlwa kodwa ngemibono engcono. Ikuphi i-lever ende futhi enamandla kunazo zonke yokuletha ukucabanga okusha kwezomnotho endaweni yenqubomgomo?
Stiglitz: Ukuxilongwa wukuthi ipolitiki ingumsuka wenkinga: Yilapho kubekwa khona imithetho yomdlalo, yilapho sinquma khona ngezinqubomgomo ezivuna abacebile nezivumele umkhakha wezezimali ukuthi uqongelele umnotho nepolitiki. amandla. Isinyathelo sokuqala kufanele kube ukuguqulwa kwezepolitiki: Shintsha imithetho yezezimali yomkhankaso. Kwenze kube lula ukuthi abantu bavote - e-Australia, banokuvota okuyimpoqo. Bhekana nenkinga ye-gerrymander. I-Gerrymandering yenza ukuthi ivoti lakho lingabale. Uma kungabalwa, ushiyela izithakazelo zemali ukuze ziphushe i-ajenda yazo. Shintsha i-filibuster, eguquke ekubeni iqhinga lekhongolose elisasetshenziswa yaba isici esijwayelekile sepolitiki. Kwehlisa amandla amaMelika. Noma ngabe unevoti eliningi, awukwazi ukuwina.
UmLungu: Sibheke izinyanga eziyisithupha zokukhankasela umongameli. Iqhaza lemali lamukelwe yizona zombili izinhlangothi. Ukuguqulwa kwezimali zomkhankaso kubonakala kungenakwenzeka.
Stiglitz: Ngisho namaRiphabhulikhi awazi kakhulu amandla emali ngokubona ukuthi ibe nomthelela futhi yahlanekezela kanjani ama-primaries. Imiphumela ayikona lokho ukusungulwa kweqembu lamaRiphabhulikhi ebekulindele. Inhlekelele iya ngokuya icaca - kodwa lokho ngeke kuholele ekutholeni amakhambi asheshayo. Labo abaqokwayo bancike kuleyo mali. Kuzodinga iqembu lesithathu eliqinile noma inhlangano yomphakathi ukwenza okuthile ngalokhu.
UJoseph Stiglitz wawina uMklomelo KaNobel kwezomnotho ngo-2001 ngomsebenzi wakhe wolwazi olulinganayo ezimakethe zezimali. UStiglitz usebenze njengosomnotho omkhulu eBhange Lomhlaba futhi, kusukela ngo-1993 kuze kube ngu-1997, njengomeluleki wezomnotho kaMongameli Clinton. Ngo-2009, wasungula i-Institute for New Economic Thinking (INET). Ufundisa e-Columbia University.
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