U-Omar Barghouti ungowesizukulwane esisha samaPalestine angakaze ahambisane nesixazululo "Izizwe Ezimbili, Abantu ababili". Bakhuthaza, esikhundleni salokho, ukuduba, ukudilizwa, kanye nezijeziso (BDS) zika-Israyeli kanye nesixazululo "sezwe, sentando yeningi", lapho amaPalestine nama-Israels azokwabelana ngamalungelo alinganayo, ngemuva kokungabi nabulungiswa okungokomlando futhi ababaleki bavunyelwe buyela.
USilvia Cattori: Ngibe nelungelo lokuhambela isethulo owasinikeza eMilan ngo-8 October 2007 [1]. Ukuhlaziywa kwakho kwesimo sasePalestine kwehlukile kunenkulumo nemibono yendabuko, okuhlanganisa phakathi kwenhlangano yobumbano yasePalestine. Ingabe ucabanga ukuthi umphakathi wase-Italy usulungele ukwamukela izikhundla zakho?
U-Omar Barghouti: Ngafika e-Italy ngoMashi, 2007, ngizovakasha, futhi ngakhuluma ngezindaba ezahlukene. Ubuciko nokucindezelwa kwakungenye yazo. Ngiphinde ngakhuluma ngesixazululo sombuso owodwa, kanye nokuduba u-Israyeli [2]. Kukhona inhlangano ekhulayo e-Italy eqonda isidingo sengcindezi ephumelelayo ku-Israyeli. Akusanele ukubamba iqhaza ezenzweni zobumbano zendabuko, njengemiboniso nokubhala izincwadi. Ngokusobala, izenzo ezinjalo ezivamile azikwazi ukuhambisa u-Israyeli yedwa, ngoba azikhuphuli inani lezombangazwe u-Israyeli okufanele alikhokhe ngokuhlala nokucindezela amaPalestina. AbaseYurophu bangabonisa konke abakufunayo; U-Israyeli akasenandaba. Ngicabanga ukuthi amaNtaliyane amaningi ayakubona lokhu.
Ukuqwashisa kubalulekile futhi lokho kufanele kuqhubeke inqobo nje uma kuqhubeka ukungqubuzana kwamakholoni. Kodwa lokhu akusanele.
Ngemuva kukaSepthemba 11, i-Israel yaba nempi kakhulu futhi manje ayinandaba nemibono yamazwe ngamazwe. Phakathi neminyaka yamashumi ayisikhombisa namashumi ayisishiyagalombili, ngisho neminyaka engamashumi ayisishiyagalolunye, u-Israyeli wayezwela kakhulu embonweni womphakathi wasentshonalanga. Nokho, ekhulwini lamashumi amabili nanye, i-Israel iye yancipha, ngenxa yamandla ayo amakhulu kanye nethonya layo elingenakuqhathaniswa eWashington, ehlala iyinhloko yezombangazwe yabaseYurophu. Futhi yileyo ndlela ama-Israyeli azibheka ngayo izinto. "SineWashington ephaketheni lethu, ubani onendaba ukuthi abantu baseYurophu bafunani?"
Ukwenza isibonelo, ngenkathi iBelgium izama ukufaka u-Ariel Sharon ecaleni ngendima yakhe esibhicongweni sase-Sabra no-Chatilla e-Beirut ngo-1982, u-Condoleezza Rice wesabisa ungqongqoshe wezangaphandle waseBelgium ngokuthi i-US izokhipha i-NATO eBelgium, phakathi kwezinye izinyathelo ezinqala. Ezinsukwini ezimbalwa, umthetho wahoxiswa futhi iNkantolo ayizange imbizele uSharon. I-US yenza okufanayo neJalimane neFrance phakathi nengxabano yabo ngempi yamaNgisi namaMelika e-Iraq ngo-2003.
I-Israel iyabona ukuthi ithonya layo elikhulu kuCongress liguqulela ngokuzenzakalelayo ithonya elikhulu, noma elingaqondile, phezu kweYurophu. Ngakho-ke, ama-Israyeli awakhathaleli kakhulu umbono womphakathi waseYurophu.
AmaNtaliyane amaningi manje ayabona ukuthi isikhathi sesifikile sengcindezi ephumelelayo ngokumelene no-Israyeli; lesi akusona isikhathi sokuthi nje uthi, "Bafana abagangile, nenza izinto ezingalungile."
USilvia Cattori: I-Wall Street Journal isanda kubhala, "Iphupho elaliyiPalestine selifile ekugcineni." [3]. Usabela kanjani kulolu hlobo lwesitatimende?
U-Omar Barghouti: Lokho kuyiphupho. I-Neoconservatives, elawula i-Wall Street Journal, isendleleni eya emgqonyeni wothuli womlando ngemva kwakho konke ukwehluleka kwawo e-Iraq nase-Afghanistan. Bangathanda ukucabanga ukuthi abasePalestine sebephelile. Ngicabanga ukuthi sebeqedile. Kuzothatha isikhathi, impela, kodwa ngikholwa ngokweqiniso ukuthi impi yabo yenkolo ifakazelwe iyisigebengu futhi iyize futhi izimpikiswano zabo ziphikisiwe.
Umklamo wabo omuhle wemibono - obekufanele uqale nge-Iraq bese ugingqika njengedomino kuso sonke isifunda sama-Arab esinothe ngowoyela, kuze kufike ekulawuleni umhlaba - uyabhidlika. Umbono wabo udalulwe njengokucwasa ngokwebala, ukugomela, kanye namaphutha amakhulu. Ngenxa yokumelana ne-Iraq, iLebanon nasePalestine, lo mbono we-neocon wombuso usendleleni yokunqotshwa ekugcineni.
USilvia Cattori: Uma ubona abaholi basePalestine besebenzisana nomhlali, esikhundleni sokusebenzela izintshisekelo zezwe lakho, uthini?
U-Omar Barghouti: Labo phakathi "kwabaholi" basePalestine abasebenzisana nomsebenzi ngokuqinisekile bayingxenye yenkinga, hhayi isisombululo. Ngibagxeka ngamazwi aqinile. Ngawuveza obala umbono wami ngalokho nalapho iHamas ithatha iGaza [4]. Nakuba ngiyigxeka kakhulu i-Hamas ngezizathu ezahlukene, ngiyabona ukuthi iningi labantu basePalestine ababengaphansi kombuso wentando yeningi labakhetha ngentando yeningi ukuthi baphathe futhi bahole umzabalazo wenkululeko nokuzibusa. Umhlaba kufanele uhloniphe le ntando yeningi ekhethwe yiPalestine, nakuba ingxenye eyodwa kwezintathu yabantu basePalestine ibambe iqhaza kulolu khetho. Izingxenye ezimbili kwezintathu ezisele, ababaleki basePalestine emhlabeni wonke kanye nezakhamizi zasePalestine kwa-Israel, azizange zicatshangelwe.
Abantu basePalestine kufanele kube yibo okumele baphendule iHamas uma behluleka ukubusa ngendlela efanele noma ukumela amalungelo asePalestine - hhayi iMelika, hhayi iYurophu futhi hhayi i-Israel.
Abanye abaholi bezombangazwe basePalestine banesandla ekugcineni umbuso wakwa-Israel wamakoloni nobandlululo. Esikhundleni sokuvuma ngokukhululekile emsebenzini, nokho, indima yabo ukunikeza umhlaba umbono ongamanga wokuthi kumane kuyingxabano; ukuthi singahlala futhi sixoxisane kahle eSwitzerland noma kwenye indawo. Ngakho-ke bafihla iqiniso lokuthi ingxabano yamakholoni edinga umzabalazo omkhulu wasemazingeni aphansi kanye nengcindezi yamazwe ngamazwe eqhubekayo nenezimiso ukuze iqedwe.
Ukusebenzisa igama elithi "ingxabano" kuyinhlekelele yangempela esihlasele kusukela ezivumelwaneni zase-Oslo [5]. Kwaqala eMadrid, ngaphambi kwe-Oslo; kodwa inqubo yase-Oslo yaba igalelo elibi kakhulu emzabalazweni wasePalestine wokuzibusa. Kwaholela ekushintsheni kwepharadigm kusuka emzabalazweni wabantu abacindezelwe ngokumelene nabahlali kanye namakoloni, kuya engxabano phakathi kwamaqembu ezizwe amabili anamalungelo aphikisanayo kodwa alinganayo kanye nezimangalo zokuziphatha.
USilvia Cattori: Ngakho-ke, singachaza kanjani ukuthi zonke izingxoxo no-Israyeli ziye zaletha ukuhlupheka okwengeziwe kumaPalestina? Abantu abafana noMnuz Erekat, u-Abbas, u-Abed-Rabbo [6] basakulungele ukuyekethisa โngezinqubo zokuthulaโ ezingenakubalwa ezinemiphumela emangalisa kangaka kubantu basePalestine, futhi balandela ngenkani umgwaqo ofanayo. Yiliphi ithemba abantu basePalestine abangaba nalo lapho bebhekene nalesi simo esibi?
Omar Barghouti: Uma uthatha isibonelo seNingizimu Afrika, iminyaka yengcindezelo kakhulu yobandlululo kwakuyiminyaka ngaphambi kokuphela; hhayi ngeminyaka yama-60 namashumi ayisikhombisa, kodwa ngasekupheleni kweminyaka yama-80 nasekuqaleni kweminyaka yama-99. Ubandlululo lwafinyelela esiqongweni salo samandla, isiqongo salo sokucindezelwa, lwabe selubhidlika. >Ngokombono wami, ngalo mzuzu, lapho inhlangano yamaZayoni inethonya elikhulu emhlabeni, angiboni njengokuphela kombuzo wasePalestine.
Ngokuphambene nalokho, ngibona njengesiqalo sokuphela kweZionism ngokwayo. U-Israyeli kanye neZionism balahlekelwe yinoma yikuphi ukuhlonishwa nokuhlonishwa komhlaba wonke ababenakho. Ziya ngokuya ziba amaphara. I-Israel, izwe okuhlanjululwa kobuhlanga okungapheli kanye nokwehliswa kwesithunzi kwabantu basePalestine kusobala noma kancane, manje isithembele kuphela ekuxhashazweni, ukwesaba ubuhlakani kanye nokusonta izingalo komphakathi wamazwe omhlaba kanye nezikhulu ezikhethiwe eNtshonalanga ukufeza izinhloso zayo. . Abantu emhlabeni wonke abawuthandi noma abawusekeli ubuZionism, njengoba izinhlolo-vo ezimbalwa zakamuva ziye zabonisa; bamane besaba ubuZayoni, futhi umehluko mkhulu.
Eminyakeni yamashumi amahlanu namashumi ayisithupha ekhulwini elidlule, abantu baseYurophu babevame ukuthanda u-Israyeli, ikhaya elithandwayo le-kibbutz, njengesibani "sentando yeningi ekhululekile" esifundeni esigcwele ukubusa kanye "nokubuyela emuva." AbaseYurophu, phela, basiza ekwakheni u-Israyeli, ngezindlela ezingaphezu kweyodwa; futhi balubuka, kusukela ngaleso sikhathi, โnjengenganeโ yabo phakathi ยซkolwandle oluhlabayo lwama-Arabsยป. I-Israel yayibhekwa njengenhlangano ekhanyiselwe, emhlophe, nephucuzekile phakathi kwaleli hlathi labantu abangalawuleki, abansundu baseNingizimu.
Futhi nakuba abantu abaningi baseYurophu bengakakhululwa kulesi simo sengqondo sokucwasa, sobukoloni maqondana nama-Arabhu, u-Israyeli namuhla unozwelo oluncane kakhulu eYurophu noma kwenye indawo emhlabeni. Inama-protรฉgรฉs akhokhelwa kahle, kanye nezindawo zokungcebeleka zezombusazwe ezisebenza kahle kakhulu ezigcotshwe kahle kakhulu. Ngamathuluzi anjalo, i-Israel ikwazile ukusho inkulumo, umugqa wezepolitiki, emithonjeni yezindaba yaseYurophu, amaphalamende kanye namandla.
Njengozakwabo baseMelika, izikhulu zaseYurophu manje zivame ukubhekana nokukhetha okunzima ukulandela umugqa osemthethweni wakwa-Israel noma ukulahlekelwa imisebenzi yazo - futhi, kaningi, nesithunzi sazo. Ukubamba iqhaza kwe-Europe ekugcineni ukuhlala nokucindezela kuka-Israyeli kuvikelwe ngokufanele ngezinsongo, ukusabisa, ukuxhashazwa, hhayi ukuncenga. Lokhu ukulahlekelwa okubaluleke kakhulu ngokomlando, kweZionism. Iye yachitha uzwela eyayinabo futhi yalahlekelwa ngokuphelele ikhono layo lokuthinta izinhliziyo nezingqondo zabantu, ngisho nabaseNtshonalanga. IZayoni manje ikuthola elikufunayo ngenduku kuphela.
Kodwa abantu bayohlala besaba kuze kube nini? Ekugcineni, bazovukela - uma kungenjalo ngenxa yamaPalestine, ngenxa yenkululeko yabo, isithunzi kanye nomuzwa wobulungisa. Sikhuluma ngabantu baseYurophu nabaseMelika, izakhamuzi ezijabulela amalungelo entando yeningi abanzi futhi asungulwe ngokomlando. Akubona abantu abacindezelwe nabampofu eGlobal South abangenawo amathuluzi okuthinta ushintsho.
Nina baseYurophu ningabantu abaphila ngaphansi kwentando yeningi - futhi ihlobene kakhulu; wenza kahle; unezwi lakho okhethweni olujwayelekile futhi ungalisebenzisa ukwenza uguquko, kodwa kuzothatha ukuphaphama okukhulu okuvela eNingizimu ye-neo-colonized, iqinisekisa kabusha intando yayo kanye nokufuna kwayo ubulungisa, intuthuko esimeme kanye nokunxeshezelwa emakhulwini eminyaka ukubusa kwamakholoni. Abantu base-Europe bangase bancengelwe ukuba balahle ifa labo lobukoloni futhi baphinde bathathe ikusasa labo kubantu ababusayo abanganaso isikhathi abadube i-ajenda yabo futhi baya ngokuya bekhaphela izithakazelo zabo. Kodwa lokho kuzodinga ukuqwashisa okuningi kanye nemikhankaso eminingi emincane kodwa esimeme engakhula kancane kancane. Lokhu kunikezwa amandla kubalulekile futhi kubalulekile ekuvaleni igebe eliseNyakatho neNingizimu, hhayi nje kwezomnotho, kodwa nangokwengqondo nangokwesiko.
USilvia Cattori: Abantu basePalestine bazi kangcono kunanoma ngubani ukuthi i-United States ne-Israel basebenzise imicimbi ye-9/11 ukuphawula noma yikuphi ukumelana njengokuthi ยซubuphekulaยป. Namuhla, iPalestinian Authority yakho izibophezela ukulandela lo mgwaqo. UMnu Abbas uthi uzolwa ยซnamaphekula eHamasยป egameni ยซamaMuslim aphakathiยป. Ingabe inhloso yangempela yokulwa nokuphela kokumelana nobukoloni okusekhona ePalestine?
U-Omar Barghouti: Yebo, kodwa inhlangano yeZionist ibambe iqhaza elikhulu ekukhuthazeni ngentshiseko le nkolelo-mbono "yokungqubuzana kwempucuko", ngokusekelwe esimisweni esingamanga sokuthi uSepthemba 11 kwakuyimpi phakathi kwamaSulumane nomhlaba wonke, phakathi kwe-Islam kanye nokunye. -ebizwa ngokuthi impucuko "yamaJuda-yobuKristu". Lo mqondo we-neocon, oxhaswe yi-Zionist uye wazuza okuningi kokuvelela eNtshonalanga, ngokudabukisayo, futhi uye waba nomthelela kubantu abaningi baseYurophu.
Uvula noma yiliphi iphepha elivamile laseYurophu futhi kuhlala kunendatshana eqinisa ukuvezwa kwamaSulumane njengobubi obunye. AmaSulumane abizwa ngokunganaki ngokuthi "amaphekula". Awuzwa nganoma iyiphi impumelelo yamaMuslim kwezobuciko, emasikweni, emibhalweni. Awukaze utshelwe lutho ngempucuko yamaSulumane. Uhlaselwa ngezithombe nokukhala kwemisindo yamaSulumane athukuthele ememeza, eshisa amafulegi futhi esekela uBin Laden. Awukho umongo. Futhi awukaze ubezwe labo bantu bezikhulumela. Njalo uchwepheshe othile wasentshonalanga ohlakaniphile uyazihumusha. Ebachaza. Ebakhulumela. Ukuzakha kabusha.
Yebo, abanye "babaholi" bethu abanomqondo wesigqila futhi abangenawo umbono noma izimiso bafake le mibono ngaphakathi kangangokuthi bakhohlwe ukuthi impilo ikhona ngaphandle kwaleli bhokisi elibi. Ukuba, ngokombono wabo, ukufana nomcindezeli, njengoba uthisha waseBrazil, uPaulo Freire, eke wabhala.
USilvia Cattori: Kodwa, ingabe lokhu akusebenzi kahle kakhulu ekuqhubekiseni umbono womphakathi ukuba wesabe lawa ma-Arabhu namaSulumane? Phela i-Israel ne-United States benza impi engapheli ngokumelene nabo, bakha ukungqubuzana ukuze abantu banganyakazi uma bebulawa.
U-Omar Barghouti: Lesi sithombe esingaphambili senkolo salokho okucatshangwa ukuthi "ukungqubuzana" sihlala siphezulu kuphela. Ngaphakathi, ukungqubuzana akuhlangene nhlobo nenkolo. Konke kumayelana nokucwasa ngokwebala, ukuxhashazwa kwezomnotho kanye nobugovu. Yiqiniso, ukukholisa abantu baseYurophu ngalokho kuzothatha isikhathi eside, ngoba uSepthemba 11 kwaba ukushaqeka okudabukisayo kakhulu kubo. Noma ngubani owenza ngoSepthemba 11 wazi kahle ukuthi benzani. Cishe kwakuyisiprofetho esizigcwalisayo, esakha ingqalasizinda yale thiyori "yokungqubuzana kwempucuko" ngendlela emangalisayo futhi enobugebengu. Kodwa angikholelwa ยซkungqubuzana kwempucukoยป; Ngikholelwa ukuthi abantu nezizwe, ngokuhlukahluka kwabo okucebile, kuningi ngobunye, kuningi abafana ngakho.
Futhi, yebo, lolu bandlululo olukhulayo lwaseYurophu oluphikisana namaSulumane, uhlobo olusha ngempela "lwe-anti-Semitism", ngokuqinisekile luyingozi kakhulu. AmaSulumane abhekwa njengabantu abancane kunamaJuda aseYurophu ake aba yikho. Ake ngikunike isibonelo endabeni yopopayi baseDenmark, imifanekiso ecwasayo ye-Islam kanye nomProfethi. Ngabhala isihloko mayelana nalokhu [7] lapho ngathi, "Cabanga umdwebi wekhathuni waseDenmark enza uhlobo olufanayo lwekhathuni, kodwa ngokumelene nobuJuda; bekuzokwenzekani eYurophu?" Maye, abantu abaningi baseYurophu abakuboni kanjalo, ngoba, kubo, namuhla kuvunyelwe ukucwasa amaSulumane.
Noma kunjalo, angikuboni njengento ehlala isikhathi eside, ngoba ukuQothulwa Kwesizwe sekuphoqelele abantu baseYurophu ukuba babhekane ngokudabukisayo kwalasha wokuziphatha nomzimba lapho ubandlululo lwalubaholele khona.
USilvia Cattori: Wasabela kanjani lapho uthola ukuthi iSwitzerland yayihlele imihlangano eyimfihlo iminyaka emibili phakathi kwamaPalestine nama-Israel. Leyo mihlangano iholele kulokho okubizwa ngokuthi "izivumelwano ze-Geneva" noma "i-Geneva Initiative". [8]
U-Omar Barghouti: I-"Geneva Initiative" iphikisana nezidingo eziyisisekelo zokuthula okunobulungiswa. Ikushaya indiva ukungabi nabulungiswa okuyisisekelo, umnyombo wembangela yasePalestine, okuwukwenqaba kuka-Israyeli ilungelo elingenakugwenywa lababaleki basePalestine, njengabo bonke abanye ababaleki emhlabeni wonke, ukuba babuyele emazweni nasemamakhaya abasuswa kuwo.
Ngakho-ke, kuyamangaza kakhulu ukuthi uhulumeni waseSwitzerland, ikakhulukazi, umvikeli oqhubekayo womthetho wobuntu wamazwe ngamazwe, angaxhasa futhi asekele isivumelwano esinjalo esiphula ngokusobala umthetho wamazwe ngamazwe.
U-Silvia Cattori: Awucabangi yini ukuthi osopolitiki baseSwitzerland kungenzeka ukuthi bebengaqondi, noma bedukiswe yilabo ababenokuchema kwe-Israel, njengoMnu. Alexis Keller ngokwesibonelo [9], labo ababenikeza ukuqondisa okuhle kakhulu ku-Israyeli. ? Uma kungenjalo, singakuchaza kanjani ukuthi, ngasohlangothini lwasePalestine, kuqokwe abaxoxisana nabo ababonakala bengathembekile kangako, bekulungele ukusekela lokho okujabulisa umhlali, njengoMnu. Yasser Abed-Rabbo?
U-Omar Barghouti: Angikaze ngivikele osopolitiki abakhohlakele basePalestine ababeka izithakazelo zabo zobugovu ngaphezu kwakho konke okunye. Kodwa lapha sibhekene nomthetho wamazwe ngamazwe, futhi iSwitzerland ayidingi muntu ukuze ayifundise ngomthetho wamazwe ngamazwe. Kuyisihlalo seNgqungquthela yaseGeneva. Ukuvumela kwayo lolu hlelo akukwazi ukuvela ngaphandle kwe-naรฏvetรฉ. Yayifuna ukujabulisa i-United States, i-European Union namanye amandla. Futhi isikhathi sasingenacala ngokuphelele futhi.
Akuhlobene ngokuphelele, kodwa into eyodwa eyenza amaSwitzerland ahamba nalokhu kwakuyihlazo lasebhange elihlobene nokubuyiselwa kokuQothulwa Kwesizwe okwaphakanyiswa e-US cishe ngesikhathi esifanayo, kanye necala elikhulu elibhekene namabhange ahamba phambili aseSwitzerland ngezigidigidi zamaRandi. isinxephezelo. Isithombe saseSwitzerland sonakaliswe e-US, futhi, kunjalo, lokho kuthinta ibhizinisi. ISwitzerland iphila ngamabhange, ngaphezu kwanoma yini enye. Ngakho-ke, lapho isithunzi nerekhodi lemboni yamabhange kungcoliswa e-US nakulo lonke elaseYurophu, kubukeka kubi kakhulu ngeSwitzerland. ISwitzerland yayifuna ukwenza noma yini ukuze ijabulise u-Israyeli, ngisho nangezindleko zokugoba izimiso ezithile, zazi kahle ikhono lesikhungo sokwamukela izivakashi sakwa-Israyeli e-US ukudambisa isivunguvungu.
USilvia Cattori: Lapho ubugebengu obunjalo benziwa ePalestine, akekho onelungelo lokwenza amaphutha anjalo. Kuyadabukisa kakhulu ukuthi phakathi nale minyaka ende yokuqedwa kokuphikiswa kwamaPalestine, inkundla yanikezwa abantu ababegxeka lo msebenzi kodwa ababeseka ngempela izixazululo zobandlululo. Lezi zixazululo azamukelekile kubantu basePalestine, ngoba bekufanele ngabe balwela izinyathelo ezibalulekile njengokuduba u-Israyeli.
Awunalo yini ilungelo lokusola labo abahlanekezele indaba yakho ngokungagcizeleli ilungelo lokubuya kwababaleki? Baphinde basekela iPalestinian Authority eyazalelwa e-Oslo, bethi bamele abantu ยซabalwa nomhlaliยป, kuyilapho beqhubeka nokwenza sengathi inkinga yasePalestine yaqala ngo-1967 hhayi ngo-1948?
U-Omar Barghouti: Pho kusizani ukubamangalela ngokukhaphela? Ngisho engikushoyo, kodwa angifuni ukusola; Ngifuna ukukholisa abantu ukuthi baqhubekele phambili, bashiye iziqubulo ezindala, ezingasebenzi zenhlangano yobumbano ngemuva futhi baqhubekele endaweni entsha, ngokuhambisana nalokho okushiwo umphakathi wasePalestine.
Ngakho-ke, esikhundleni sokugxeka abaholi bobumbano, ngizobatshela nje, "Mhlawumbe anitshelwanga kahle; mhlawumbe nikhohliswe inkulumo-ze yakwa-Israyeli, kwesinye isikhathi icutshungulwa nguMalume wasePalestine Toms; mhlawumbe ugxilile nje eziqubulweni ezithile oziphindaphinde kanjalo. ngokuvamile ukuthi sebecishe baqonda ngokubona kwakho."
Isiqubulo esithi "izifundazwe ezimbili zabantu ababili" sesiphenduke imfundisoze. Futhi inhlangano yobumbano iwile kakhulu ngaphansi kwesipelingi salo mbono ogxilile. Ngakho sidinga ukuyibekela inselele leyo mfundiso futhi siqhubekisele abantu phambili kunokuba sibaqhelelanise. Futhi, ngokuhlangenwe nakho kwami, abantu abaningi babhekana nezimo ezishintshayo nezishintshashintshayo lapho bebhekene namaqiniso, izimpikiswano ezinengqondo kanye nombono wokuziphatha ophoqelelayo. Uma uhlezi nabo futhi ubakholisa, uyabona ukuthi abantu abaningi bathembekile futhi banenhloso enhle. Baqotho; bona, njengathi, basekela ubulungisa; bafuna ukuthula; kodwa batshelwa okungeyikho ngoba banezikhulumi eziningi kakhulu, okuhlanganisa nabasePalestine, abafika ngaphambili babatshele: "Izifundazwe ezimbili, kubantu ababili, yilokho okufunwa ngabantu basePalestine."
USilvia Cattori: Kumelwe kukududuze ukubona ukuthi abantu abaningi ngokwengeziwe bayasukuma futhi babize ukwephulwa kwamalungelo abantu bakwa-Israyeli ngamagama abo angempela, njengoba kusanda kwenziwa uMbikeli Okhethekile woMkhandlu Wamalungelo Abantu we-UN mayelana nesimo amalungelo abantu ezindaweni zasePalestine ezidliwe, uProf. John Dugard [10]. Imuphi umlayezo ongathanda ukumthumelela wona?
U-Omar Barghouti: UProf. Dugard ungumbhali okhuthazayo, onezimiso nesibindi futhi ungumuntu. Kukhona okucace kakhulu engingakusho kuye. Embikweni wakhe wokugcina ngendawo yasePalestine eyayidliwe wasebenzisa igama elithi "ubandlululo" okokuqala ngqa ukuchaza izinqubomgomo zakwa-Israel; wabhala, "Izinqubomgomo ezithile zokuhlala kwa-Israel zifana nobandlululo."
Lesi akusona isitatimende esincane esivela kumuntu wesiqu sikaJohn Dugard. Iphuzu lami kuyena yilokhu: ngicela niqhubeke niphushele ngalapha, ngoba i-UN isinazo izinqumo zokuthi kumele kubhekwane kanjani nobugebengu bobandlululo noma kuphi emhlabeni. Ubandlululo luwubugebengu obujwayelekile. Akukhona eNingizimu Afrika kuphela. Manje sinesibonelo; asikho isidingo sokuqamba kabusha isondo. Esikudingayo nje ukuthethelela kanye nokwenza kwaziwe lokhu kutholakala kuka-Israyeli njengombuso wobandlululo. Nakuba i-Israel isezindaweni eziningi ezihluke kakhulu kuneyaseNingizimu Afrika yobandlululo - okubi kakhulu, ngokubona kukaDesmond Tutu nabanye - inokufana okwanele nayo ukuze kuthethelelwe ukuqhathanisa. Phela, azikho iziguli ezimbili eziba nezimpawu ezifanayo ncamashi zesifo esifanayo; kodwa basaxilongwa ukuthi bayafana. Uma u-Israel etholakala enecala lokuqhuba ubandlululo, kukhona amathuluzi omthetho wamazwe ngamazwe, njengokujeziswa, angasetshenziswa yi-UN ukubhekana nawo.
Silvia Cattori: Ubungeke yini ukhethe ukuthi uMnu. Dugard asho ngokungananazi ukuthi "ubandlululo" esikhundleni sokuthile "okufana" nobandlululo?
U-Omar Barghouti: UMnu. Dugard ungumkhulumeli. Sibonga kakhulu ngokuthi waba nesibindi kanye nokucaca kokuziphatha kwakhe ngisho nokusho igama eligcwele, ubandlululo.
Awulindele ukuthi isikhulu se-UN kube ngowokuqala ukusho kanjalo. Thina, maPalestine, kufanele sibe ngabokuqala ukusho njalo, ukukufakazisa, ukukwenza kunamathele. Inhlangano yobumbano kufanele ikusho; bese-ke, mhlawumbe, i-UN.
Umuntu akanakulindela lukhulu ku-UN yamanje, ikakhulukazi ngoNobhala Jikelele omusha - isikhulu esimaphakathi, ngokubona kwami, oziphatha njengokungathi uyisisebenzi esincane esikhokhelwayo soMnyango Wezwe LaseMelika. Kodwa i-UN isalokhu iyinkundla yethu kuphela lapho sinethemba lokugomela amalungelo ethu ngaphansi komthetho wamazwe ngamazwe. Angibasekeli labo abaphikisana ngokudlula noma ukunganaki i-UN. Yini enye esinayo? Njengoba i-US ichemile futhi ithobela izithakazelo ze-US njengoba i-UN isiba njalo, kunesikhala sezinguquko, ukuze ibonakale futhi izwele ezifisweni zesintu, futhi ikakhulukazi kubantu abacindezelwe baseNingizimu, kuhlanganisa namaPalestina. Nokho, yimashi ende.
U-Silvia Cattori: Naphezu kobucayi beziphetho zikaDugard, iziphathimandla zakwa-Israel ziye zayinqaba ngokuhlelekile imibiko yakhe. Ngangikhona eNhlanganweni Yezizwe, ngoNdasa wezi-2007 e-Geneva, lapho iNxusa lakwa-Israyeli lizwakalisa, phambi kwezilaleli zamanxusa, ukungavumelani kwakhe okusemthethweni noMnu. Dugard. Wamsola ngokuqamba amanga, nokwenza izimemezelo ezinonya nezichemile. Ingabe ukumangazile lokhu kusabela?
U-Omar Barghouti: Lawa amaqhinga izikhulu zakwa-Israel kanye nabasekeli bazo abawasebenzisa kakhulu; akusekho ukukholisa, akusekho ukuxabana. Manje, bheka ukuthi benzani e-US nase-UK, bacindezela inkulumo-mpikiswano ngezinqubomgomo zakwa-Israel; Inkulumo-mpikiswano imane iyingozi kakhulu kubo. Ivula imiqondo yabantu. Yingakho nje silwela inkulumompikiswano.
Akufanele kwamukeleke emiphakathini ezichaza yona yentando yeningi ukuba nenkulumo-mpikiswano ngo-Israyeli, kwa-Israyeli kuphela, ecutshungulwa noma eyekiswe ukugunyazwa.
Silvia Cattori: Ngemva kokushicilelwa kwencwadi yakhe egxeka ubandlululo lwakwa-Israel, ingabe uke wathintana noMongameli wangaphambili uJimmy Carter [11]?
U-Omar Barghouti: Abantu abaningi bathumele izincwadi ezisekela uCarter, kodwa amaqembu anamandla eZionist e-US ahlanganisa yonke inhlangano ngokumelene naye. Manje, owayengumongameli, futhi owine umklomelo weNobel Peace, akasaxoxwa kuthelevishini yaseMelika noma emaphephandabeni amakhulu. UMnu. Carter udinga ukwesekwa okwengeziwe kunokubonga kwethu okusuka enhliziyweni.
USilvia Cattori: Wasabela kanjani lapho uMnu. Bush ehlongoza uMnu. Blair "njengendoda yokuthula"?
Omar Barghouti: UMnu. Tony Blair ngeke enze lutho ukusiza ukuletha ukuthula noma ubulungisa. Izakhamizi eziningi zaseBrithani zimsola ngokugculisayo ngokuba usomathuba ongathembekile kanye ne-lackey yaseMelika. Ngiyazwelana nazo zombili lezi zinhlamvu. Ngokubona kwami, naye akanawo umbono nesibindi sokwenza noma yini enenjongo ukuze kube nokuthula okunobulungiswa.
USilvia Cattori: Ucabangeni ngengqungquthela yase-Annapolis eyayise-US ngoNovemba 2007?
U-Omar Barghouti: Ngokugcizelela ukuthi "abaxoxisana" basePalestine kumele baqaphele u-Israyeli "njengezwe lamaJuda," u-Israyeli ukhahlele ngempela ibhubesi elilele ezimbanjeni, ukuze aboleke isingathekiso esasetshenziswa u-Uri Avnery - engingavumelani ngokuphelele naye, ngaphandle kwalokho. Ukuphikelela kukaBarak "okungahlakaniphile" kanye nenkani ngesikhathi seCamp David II ngo-2000 ukuthi u-Arafat kumele alahle ilungelo lokubuyela kwababaleki basePalestine kwaholela ekuvukeni kwangempela komphakathi wababaleki, okuholela ekuhlanganiseni okukhulu kanye nengcindezi ehlangene ku-Arafat ukuthi anganyakazi. Ngempela, wabulawa ngaphandle kokunikela lelo lungelo.
Ngalesi sikhathi, kwakukhona amabhubesi amabili u-Israyeli awakhahlela kubambo lapho efuna ukwamukelwa ngokusemthethweni kwePalestine ilungelo lakhe lokuba khona njengombuso wamaJuda: ibhubesi elikhulu elifanayo elimele ababaleki kanye nebhubesi elincane, ngokuvamile elithambile kakhulu, elimele umphakathi wasePalestina. ngaphakathi kwa-Israel, cishe izigidi eziyi-1.5 izakhamuzi zomdabu zasePalestine zakwa-Israel kuze kube manje ebezincishwe inyumbazane ngokuphelele futhi zancishwa amalungelo kuzo zonke "izingxoxo" eziphathelene nokuqeda le ngxabano yamakholoni.
Ngenhlanhla, u-Olmert kanye nezicukuthwane zamanje zezombangazwe kwa-Israel bafakazele, ekulungiseleleni i-Annapolis, ukuthi babenobuthuntu njengabanduleli babo. Leli inani u-Israyeli okufanele alikhokhe, ngokusobala, ngokuba ngumholi womhlaba ekugayweni kabusha kwabaholi! Umholi ngamunye wakwa-Israyeli oqala ukubusa (ngaphandle kwalabo abafa noma ababulawa abahlali base-Israel abaphiko lwesokudla) ngokushesha uyachithwa futhi uhileleke emahlazweni azo zonke izinhlobo: ezocansi, ezezimali, ubugebengu bempi, njll. Base behlehla ukukhohlwa, kuphela ukuphindukuzalwa futhi kusungulwe kabusha eminyakeni embalwa kamuva njengokuhlanganisa "ithemba" elisha lesizwe esidukile - futhi ngokuyisimangaliso baphinde baqokwe kabusha ngamacele ahloniphekile! Ama-Israyeli awagcini nje ngokuhlushwa i-amnesia ekhethiwe; baswele ngempela ezingeni lobuholi. Akubona abantu basePalestine kuphela, kubonakala sengathi.
Elinye iphuzu elibalulekile nge-Annapolis ukuthi uMahmoud Abbas akanalo igunya lokuyeka noma yini ebalulekile. Akayena u-Arafat. Akanawo umlando womzabalazo wokulwa no-Israyeli. Ukuduma kwakhe, nakuba kungaphezu kuka-Olmert okudabukisayo ngo-3%, kusekubi kakhulu. Unokuntuleka okukhulu embonweni, ngokubona kwami. I-Hamas ilawula iGaza; futhi lokhu kumenza abe buthakathaka nakakhulu. Ngamafuphi, akayena umholi ongakwazi ukwenza "ibhizinisi" futhi alethe "impahla" eshiwo u-Israyeli kanye ne-US. Uzokhuluma futhi amamatheke kakhulu; hamba kakhulu; zama ukubonakala unesibindi; kodwa konke kuzontengantenga, ngicabanga. Ngokuhamba kuka-Arafat, i-Israel yalahlekelwa yithuba layo lokugcina lokuphusha isixazululo semibuso emibili - isisombululo esingenabulungiswa nesingenasimilo, noma ngabe yikuphi. Akukho ukuzisola.
I-one-state alternative, i-moral alternative, ayisabonwa njengombono we-utopian; iya ngokuya icwaningwa futhi yethulwa njengento engenzeka engathi sรญna ezayo emoyeni ngaphezu kwabo bonke labo "baxoxisana." Bheka nje isexwayiso sika-Olmert sakamuva e-Ha'aretz sokuthi, uma inqubo ye-Annapolis yehluleka, u-Israel uzongena ehlangothini lobandlululo (njengokungathi ayikakwenzi lokho!). I-Annapolis ayikwazi kodwa yehluleka. Ayikhulumi ngezimbangela zokungqubuzana, futhi ayithembisi ubulungiswa noma ukulingana.
Silvia Cattori: Uzizwa unjani uma ubona abamele ipolitiki benza umsebenzi ofana nabahleli?
U-Omar Barghouti: Ngibagxeka ngokuphelele. Kuyihlazo ukuthi iPalestinian Authority (PA) idlale indima yokuba usonkontileka abancane kubahlali, ibakhulule kweminye yemithwalo yabo yobukoloni.
USilvia Cattori: Ingabe lowo umbono weningi lamaPalestine?
U-Omar Barghouti: Ngiyakholwa ukuthi iningi labantu basePalestine liyakugxeka ukuhambisana kwe-PA, ngamazinga ahlukahlukene. Cishe wonke umuntu engimaziyo, izifundiswa, izihlakaniphi, abasebenzi bezamasiko, amaciko, njalo njalo, abahambisani nokuboshwa kwamabutho e-PA ngokungemthetho, ngokungafanele kwezishoshovu eziphikisa, isibonelo, noma indima ye-PA ekukhululeni u-Israyeli.
USilvia Cattori: Ngakho-ke, kubantu abaningi basePalestine, amalungu e-Hamas awawona "amaphekula" kodwa izakhamuzi ezivamile nje?
Omar Barghouti: Bakhethwa ngokwentando yeningi. Ukubopha abantu ngoba bephikisana nomsebenzi kuyichilo. Abazange bephule imithetho yasePalestine; bamelana nokuhlasela kwama-Israyeli. I-Israel ifuna iPalestine Authority ibe yiphoyisa layo, yenze umsebenzi wayo egameni layo.
USilvia Cattori: Ngaphandle kwePalestine, izinto azilula. Isikhathi eside, labo ababefuna ukukhuluma ยซnge-pro-Israel lobbyยป, ukuduba, noma ubandlululo lwakwa-Israel, bakhishwa engxoxweni, behlanjalazwa ngabaholi bobumbano. Ingabe leyo akuyona indlela yokuvikela u-Israyeli? Uma kungenjalo, singakuchaza kanjani ukuthi inxele, iningi labaholi bobumbano, alikaze liyibone i-Israel ngendlela efanayo neyaseNingizimu Afrika yobandlululo, futhi lihlale lizikhombisa ukuthi liyathalalisa ukuze lifanele u-Israyeli njengezwe lobandlululo? [12] Ingabe umangazwe ukusabela okubuthakathaka kusukela ngo-2004 ezicelweni zakho zokuduba u-Israyeli?
U-Omar Barghouti: Abanye "amaZionists athambile" embuthweni wobumbano bazama konke okusemandleni abo ukuthi ยซcha, u-Israel akalona ubandlululoยป, ngoba azi kahle ukuthi ilebula elinjalo lisho ukuthini. Ingase imeme unswinyo kanye nokuduba okubanzi kwamazwe ngamazwe.
Ukujezisa ubandlululo yinto abantu abaningi emhlabeni jikelele abakwaziyo ukuyenza. Futhi ยซamaZionists athambileยป ayakubona lokho. Bayabona ukuthi lokhu kunamandla kakhulu, kusebenza kakhulu kunanoma yisiphi isikhali sasePalestine. Abantu basePalestine bangakwazi ukuthuthukisa ama-"Qassams" abo kuze kube phakade, kodwa lokho akusoze kwalimaza u-Israyeli njengomkhankaso wokuduba oqhubekayo, umkhankaso wokuduba okungenalo udlame, ukukhishwa kwezindlu kanye nezigwegwe (BDS) eYurophu, eNyakatho Melika nase-Asia, eNingizimu Afrika.
U-Silvia Cattori: Ingabe kunzima kuwe ukuthi ukhulume nabantu abangase bagxeke ubugebengu bakwa-Israyeli, kodwa ungabuzi ngempela uhlobo lwalesi simo, futhi abangabelani ngaso sonke isikhathi ngezikhundla zakho mayelana nokuduba? Futhi abanye ababona isimo sakho mayelana nesixazululo ยซsesifunda esisodwaยป ? Ngabe amaPalestine ayisakhamuzi sakwa-Israel, abekezelela ukucindezelwa kwamakholoni kanye nobandlululo lwamaSiyoni ngaphakathi koMbuso wakwa-Israel, afaneleka kangcono ukukhuluma ngalokho akubekezelela ngenxa yobandlululo lwakwa-Israyeli?
U-Omar Barghouti: Cha, anginandaba, ngoba uMichel Warschawsky uzichaza njengomuntu ophikisana neZionist, futhi usekela amalungelo amaningi asePalestina. Asivumelani ngamaqhinga; asivumelani ngokumela amalungelo athile. Akukho ukungaboni ngaso linye ekwabelaneni naye ngethimba, nokho, ukudingida izindlela zokuqeda ingcindezelo yakwa-Israyeli.
Ngeke ngabelane ngephaneli nommeleli wesikhungo sakwa-Israel esingathathi hlangothi ngomsebenzi, isibonelo, noma ongawasekeli amalungelo abantu basePalestine. Nge-Warschawsky, kuzoba impikiswano, ngiyamhlonipha, kodwa asivumelani kakhulu, ngicabanga, odabeni esiludingidayo, okuyindima yenkolo nobuhlanga ekucwaseni kwa-Israyeli.
Sidinga ukuhlanganisa wonke amandla ethu. Ngakho-ke, sidinga ukuhlukanisa phakathi kwabantu esingavumelani nabo ngamaqhinga, kanye nabantu abayizitha zangempela, esingavumelani nabo ngezimiso eziyinhloko zobulungiswa, umthetho wamazwe ngamazwe kanye nomgomo obalulekile wokulingana.
Singaphikisani nabantu mayelana nendlela yokuqeda ukungabi nabulungisa noma ngisho nokuthi yiziphi izinhlobo zokungabi nabulungisa okudingeka silwe nazo; kodwa kufanele sikugcine lokho kungavumelani kumongo wako, njengokungavumelani phakathi kwabantu abavumelana ngomgomo oyinhloko: ukuqeda ukungabi nabulungisa. Impi yethu enkulu ibhekene nalabo abeseka u-Israyeli ngobumpumputhe futhi baphikise ngisho nokuqeda umsebenzi. Ngakho-ke lowo mehluko udinga ukwenziwa. Noma kunjalo, akusho ukungabi nalwazi nokwamukela imikhawulo ethile yokwenziwa engxoxweni.
Njengomuntu wasePalestine, angikwazi ukwamukela ukutshelwa yinoma ngubani enhlanganweni yobumbano ukuthi yini evunyelwe nokuthi yini engavunyelwe ukuthi ngiyiphakamise, ngiyiphikisa. Sinquma ukuthi yini evunyelwe. Noma abantu abanomthethosisekelo ebunyeni namaPalestine bengabalingani bethu, amaqabane ethu, abakabi "thina." Akufanele bakhulume egameni lethu, njengokungathi asisekho.
USilvia Cattori: Kodwa yilokho okwenzekayo! Izwi lamaPalestine, abanombono ofana nowakho, lincane engxoxweni. Izikhundla ze-Israel ยซikamu lokuthulaยป zimele izwi elikhulu engxoxweni eYurophu; izwi elithanda ukugxeka umsebenzi kodwa elingakubekezeleli okuthinta imvelo "yezwe lamaJuda." Futhi yilelo zwi elichaza, de facto, imikhawulo yempikiswano, ekusekeleni izixazululo ezingaqinisekisa, ku-Israyeli, "ubukhulu bamaJuda" ePalestine. Izwi lakho licishe lingezwakali.
E-France, isibonelo, kunezinhlangano zendabuko, ezisebenza nabameleli be-Palestinian Authority, abanquma ukuthi ubani ยซabangane bangempelaยป basePalestina futhi abangekho. Izincwadi zabo ziphuma kakhulu kubabhali be-Israel ยซikamu lokuthulaยป kanye nalabo, eYurophu, abasebenza nabo. Kuyafana nasemihlanganweni. Akufanele yini amaPalestine angabameleli bangempela bokumelana nomhlali akumele abe nendawo enkulu?
U-Omar Barghouti: Ngeke samukele lesi simo esingesihle, ngiyavuma. Inkinga ukuthi abanye abantu basePalestine abathobekile baye bavumela ikamu elibizwa ngokuthi "ukuthula" lakwa-Israel ukwenza lokhu. Eqinisweni, alikho ikamu lokuthula kwa-Israyeli, ngomqondo wenhlangano esekela ukuthula okufanele, okuwukuphela kokuthula okungafanela igama lakho. Kodwa, ngeshwa, sinabantu abambalwa basePalestine abakule bhizinisi lokuthula - yebo, ibhizinisi; bahamba โnabalinganiโ babo bakwa-Israyeli; bakhuluma kanyekanye; baya emahhotela aphambili; bamenywa ohulumeni baseSwitzerland naseNorway, ezindaweni zokungcebeleka; njalo njalo. Bayayithanda; kuyibhizinisi elinenzuzo enkulu. Futhi inani abalikhokhayo liwukuyekethisa kumalungelo ayisisekelo asePalestine, futhi, ngokungaqondile, naso kanye isithunzi sabo. Bayeka ukuzikhulumela bavumele labo benzi bokuthula mbumbulu ukuthi bakhulumele amaPalestine.
USilvia Cattori: Ngakho-ke, ubeka umthwalo wemfanelo kubantu basePalestine abavumayo ukuba yingxenye yokuthula "ibhizinisi"?
U-Omar Barghouti: Akuwona wonke umthwalo wemfanelo, kodwa ingxenye yomthwalo wemfanelo ikubantu basePalestine abasebenza ngendlela eyeka ngisho nokuzimelela kwePalestina.
Silvia Cattori: Iqiniso lihlala liwukuthi lokhu kubumbana okuchema kube yisici esidabukisa kakhulu, futhi kwaba yisici esilimaza izisulu zengcindezelo yakwa-Israyeli. Ngo-2002, lapho uSharon eqala impi yakhe, kwaba nombhikisho omkhulu eYurophu. Kwakunabantu abangu-30,000 emigwaqweni yaseParis. Ngo-2005, lapho iziboshwa zasePalestine kwa-Israyeli zenza isiteleka sokulamba, futhi izindiza zakwa-Israyeli zabulala abantu abangaphezu kwekhulu e-Jabalyia (ukubulawa kwabantu okukhulu kweJenin), kwakungekho abantu abangaphezu kwekhulu emigwaqweni yase-Israel. Paris.
Konke lokho kufanele kucatshangelwe ngokucophelela kakhulu ngoba, ePalestine, abantu bayahlupheka futhi bafe ngenxa yawo wonke amaphutha nokukhohlisa okwenziwa ngenxa yabo! Kuyimpi engenasihawu, hhayi ukungqubuzana phakathi kwezinhlangothi ezimbili ezilinganayo. Uma kunamaqembu angenelelayo inhloso yawo efihliwe iwukugcina uhlaka olwamukelekayo ukuze kuphile u-Israyeli njengoMbuso wamaJuda, lokhu kungaba lutho ngaphandle kokudambisa inkanuko kulabo abafuna amaPalestine athole ukuqashelwa ngamalungelo abo!
U-Omar Barghouti: Ngicabanga ukuthi kuhle ukuthi abanye abantu bafune ukusebenzela ukuqeda nje umsebenzi; inqobo nje uma bengasho ukuthi abantu abasebenzela yonke inhlobo yamalungelo asePalestine kanye nokungalungi kwa-Israel banephutha. Ngamanye amazwi, uma umuntu ethi, "Umkhawulo wami yilokhu, ngizosebenza ngokumelene nomsebenzi futhi ngihlele iqembu ukuze ngiqwashise ngakho," basebenzela amalungelo asePalestine. Uma singeke sikwazi ukusebenza nalabo bantu, sizobahlukanisa futhi silahlekelwe abaningi kwabajwayelekile.
Silvia Cattori: Singathemba yini ukuthi, ngenxa yamazwi afana nalawo ka-Ilan Pappe, ka-John Mearsheimer kanye noStephen Walt [13], kaJimmy Carter, kaJohn Dugard, abaphule imithetho ethile, nangenxa yemizamo yabantu abangaziwa abasizayo. Lawa mazwi azwakale, ukuthi usekuqaleni kwenkathi entsha mayelana ne-radicalization ku-Israyeli?
Futhi ingabe lawa mazwi amasha azoletha ukulingana emazwini afana no-Avnery, (owusizo ngempela, kodwa noma kunjalo, usekela izixazululo ezingalungile), ukwenza la mazwi angamukeleki kubantu basePalestina?
U-Omar Barghouti: Amazwi amaJuda angama-Anti-Zionist aya ngokuya edalula inkohliso exhaswe amaZionists athambile afana no-Avnery. Ukuba yiZionist namuhla kusho ukukholelwa ukuthi ukuhlanzwa kohlanga lwasePalestine kwamukelekile noma kufaneleka ukuze kumiswe umbuso wamaJuda, nokuthi ababaleki basePalestina akufanele bavunyelwe ukubuyela, ukuze balondoloze "umlingiswa wamaJuda" -funda: ukuphakama kobuhlanga - yoMbuso.
Lokho kuwuvivinyo lokuziphatha kunoma ubani osebenzela ukuthula okunobulungisa. Ukuthethelela ukuhlanzwa kohlanga nokunqatshelwa kwamalungelo ababaleki ukuze kugcinwe ubukhosi bamaJuda bakwa-Israyeli kuwukucwasa. Noma ubani osekela izikhundla ezinjalo akanakuba umuntu oziphethe kahle. Uma othile ethi, "I-Nakba yayiyingozi, ngempela kwakuwubugebengu bempi, kodwa ngicabanga ukuthi izifunda ezimbili zingcono," khona-ke singakhuluma, singaphikisana. Kodwa uma ethi ukuhlanjululwa kohlanga kwakwamukelekile, bangabacwasi ababheka ukuthi amaPalestine amaphela. Angikwazi ukuba nengxoxo ephusile nabantu abanjalo. Ngakho, yilapho ngidweba khona umugqa.
USilvia Cattori: Ngakho-ke, inhlangano yokulwa nempi ayizange ihluleke ngokuphelele, njengoba intatheli uJeff Blankfort iphakamisa [14]?
U-Omar Barghouti: Angicabangi ukuthi kuhlulekile. Ayikazuzi okuningi njengoba kufanele, uma kunikezwe amandla, intshiseko, umuzwa wobumbano phakathi kwabantu abaningi emhlabeni jikelele. Ngiyavuma ukuthi esinye sezizathu - ziningi - ukuthi ยซabalindisangoยป, labo ababeka imingcele, ukutshela abantu okuvunyelwe futhi okungavunyelwe, futhi ukudweba imigqa ebomvu, abanalo i-radical-enough ajenda. I-ajenda yabo ibuthakathaka kakhulu futhi inamahloni kakhulu ukubhekana nezinhlobo ezintathu eziyisisekelo zengcindezelo yakwa-Israyeli ngokumelene namaPalestine: ukuphikwa kwamalungelo ababaleki basePalestine; ukuthathwa kwezempi kanye nokuthathwa kwamakoloni endaweni yasePalestine ka-1967; kanye nohlelo lokucwasa ngokwebala, noma lokho engikubiza ngokuthi, ubandlululo oluhlakaniphile, olumelene nezakhamuzi zasePalestine zakwa-Israyeli.
Yebo kunezizathu eziningi zomhlaba zokuthi kungani kunzima kakhulu ukuba nobumbano nePalestine, ikakhulukazi ngemva kukaSeptemba 11th, lapho amaPalestine enziwa amademoni, ehlaziswa futhi evezwa ngokuthi ยซamaphekulaยป ngu-Israyeli kanye ne-US. Ngisho naseYurophu lokhu kuyakhula.
Futhi, ngenxa yethonya lamaSiyoni kwabezindaba naphezu kweCongress eWashington, noma yimuphi umfundi, noma yimuphi ungqondongqondo, noma yimuphi umculi, noma yimuphi usopolitiki onesibindi sokuphumela obala ukuze asekele ubulungiswa bePalestine, kungenzeka ukuthi abulawe noma alahlekelwe. umsebenzi wakhe ngokuphelele. Inani elikhokhwa abantu abanonembeza abazibophezele ekuvikeleni amalungelo asePalestina futhi abafuna ukuphela kwazo zonke izinhlobo zokungabi nabulungisa kwe-Israel Zionist likhulu kunanini ngaphambili. Ngibathulela isigqoko bonke labo, naphezu kwakho konke ukwesatshiswa, abasazabalazela amalungelo asePalestine.
USilvia Cattori: Ngenkathi ngiya kwa-Israel, ngo-2002-2003, kwangishaqisa ukuthola ukuthi, njengoba ukubulawa kwabantu nokucekelwa phansi okungaka kwakwenzeka ePalestine, kwakukhona, ngaphandle kwamazwe ngamazwe kanye namaPalestina ayisakhamuzi sakwa-Israyeli, kuphela. ama-Israyeli angamakhulu ambalwa eTel Aviv noma eJerusalema alungele ukungena emigwaqweni ephikisana nobugebengu balabo ยซreservistsยป.
Ngakho-ke, ngabona ukuthi "inhlangano yokuthula" kwa-Israyeli, njengoba sasicabanga, yayingakaze ibe khona, nokuthi abanye babenze uhlobo oluthile lokukhohlisa ukuze benze abantu bakholwe ukuthi izishoshovu zokuthula kwa-Israel zaziyisici esishukumisayo esivuna amalungelo asePalestine. . Nakuba, empeleni, amaPalestine ngeke alindele lukhulu kulo mnyakazo. Uthini owakho umbono mayelana nalokhu?
U-Omar Barghouti: I-Israel "kwesokunxele" iwukukhwabanisa. Kungamanga amakhulu. Ayikho i-Israel esele, nganoma yiziphi izindinganiso zamazwe ngamazwe zaleli gama, futhi ngiphonsela inselelo noma ubani ukuthi angibonise ngenye indlela. Ngakhuluma ngalokhu engqungqutheleni eyayiseBil'in, ngoMeyi, lapho ngathi: "Ngokwenqaba kwawo amalungelo ababaleki basePalestine kanye nokugcizelela kwawo ubukhosi bamaJuda kanye nokucwaswa ngokobuhlanga kwezakhamizi zasePalestine zakwa-Israel, 'kwesokunxele' kwa-Israyeli kwenza ukucwasa kwabokufika. khona kanye eYurophu babukeka benesimilo njengoMama Teresa, uma kuqhathaniswa."
Othile wakwaGush Shalom wangibekela inselele, ethi, "Konke kuncike ekutheni usichaza kanjani isinxele. Uchaza isinxele njengalabo abamukela ilungelo lokubuyela kwababaleki basePalestine. Ngingachaza kwesokunxele njengabantu abaphikisana nabo nje Ngakho-ke angivumelani nencazelo yakho yesobunxele."
Ngaphendula, "Hhayi-ke, khohlwa izincazelo ezihambisanayo zesobunxele. Masivumelane ngencazelo yendawo yonke. Singavuma yini ukuthi ukulingana kuwumgomo oyisisekelo, umgomo oyisisekelo okufanele noma yimuphi umshicileli ofanele igama le-leftist avume, ukuthi bonke abantu bayalingana?"
Wathi, "Yebo."
Ngathi, โNgakho-ke, masivumelane ukuthi noma ubani owenqaba ukunika ababaleki basePalestine ilungelo lokubuyela, ngenxa nje yokuthi abawona amaJuda, empeleni ukholelwa ukuthi abantu basePalestine - kungakhathaliseki ukuthi amaSulumane noma amaKristu - abalingani namaJuda; bangabantu abancane. Lokho kumenza abe ngumuntu ocwasa ngokwebala, ngokuqinisekile akayena umshicileli."
Lena akuyona incazelo yami, incazelo yendawo yonke. Ngale ncazelo yendawo yonke, iningi lalabo kwa-Israyeli abathi bangabalandeli benxele bangabashisekeli kwesokudla. Abasali nakancane. Bamelene nelungelo lokubuya; bamelene nokuqaphela amaNakba - ukuhlanjululwa kohlanga ngo-1948; iningi labo limelene nokuqeda ngokuphelele ukudliwa kweJerusalema nezinye izingxenye zeWest Bank ngokuhambisana nomthetho wamazwe ngamazwe.
Ama-Israyeli asungula futhi asakaza inganekwane yokuthi kunekamu elikhulu elingakwesokunxele; futhi lapho siqala ukuduba izikhungo zemfundo zakwa-Israel, labo "abanxele" bamemeza ngokungathembeki, "Izifundiswa zakwa-Israel zihamba phambili emzabalazweni wokulwa nomsebenzi. Ningaziduba kanjani izifundiswa zethu?"
Konke lokhu kuyinganekwane. Ngokocwaningo oluthembekile olwenziwa izazi zakwa-Israel, isibalo sezifundiswa zakwa-Israel esezike zasayina incwadi yezikhalazo ezilahla lo msebenzi - ingasaphathwa eya emigwaqweni ukuze zibonise - singamakhulu ambalwa kuphela, kwezifundiswa eziyizinkulungwane eziyisishiyagalolunye. Uma ubungase uhlole imibono yabo ngelungelo elingenakugwenywa lababaleki basePalestine noma uqede ukucwasa โabangewona amaJudaโ kwa-Israyeli, ubuzothola idlanzana lezifundiswa zamaJuda nama-Israel ezisekela amalungelo anjalo. Lona usayizi wangempela wesobunxele kwa-Israyeli; liyiqembu elincane kakhulu labamelene namaZionists abanezimiso, abanesibindi futhi abanokuziphatha okungaguquki.
Naphezu kwalokho, isicelo sethu sokuduba singokwesikhungo; ayibheki izifundiswa zakwa-Israel ngayinye. Ngakho-ke simi endaweni eqinile kuwo wonke amazinga, ikakhulukazi uma sibheka ukubamba iqhaza okubhalwe kahle kwazo zonke izikhungo zemfundo zakwa-Israel ekulondolozeni nasekukhuthazeni izici ezihlukahlukene zengcindezelo yakwa-Israyeli ngokumelene namaPalestine.
U-Silvia Cattori: Leli qembu elincane kakhulu elingakwesokunxele eliphumelele, ngokusebenzisa amaqhinga ahlukahlukene, ekutholeni izwi elikhulu, kanye nokugcina ukunyakaza kobumbano phakathi kwemingcele ethile, bekungeke yini kube yingxenye yenkinga? Ekusekeleni i-ยซOslo Agreementsยป, i- ยซGeneva Initiativeยป, nokunye, ayizange yini iqhubekisele phambili imbangela ka-Israyeli?
U-Omar Barghouti: Abantu basePalestina badinga ukucacisa ukunyakaza kobumbano, nasemhlabeni, ukuthi kungabikho muntu okufanele akhulume egameni lethu. โSivuthweโ ngokwanele, โsibadalaโ ngokwanele ukuba sizikhulumele. Asidingi noma yikuphi ukuziphatha okuxekethile okuvela kubangani noma ezitheni.
Abaningi abashisekeli bakwa-Israel, phakathi namashumi eminyaka behlala, bajwayele ukukhulumela amaPalestine bese betshela amaPalestine lokho okufanele sikucabange futhi sikubuze, umgomo omkhulu kube ukuthi bangasiza kanjani labo "inxele" bakwa-Israel emzabalazweni "wabo". ! Ngenkathi siqala umnyakazo wokuduba, sabatshela ngempumelelo, "Sekwanele!"
I-Palestine ibiza ukuthi idube ichazwe ngokucacile kulabo abazibiza nge-Israel ishiya ukuthi isimo sabo sengqondo sokusisekela sasilulaza futhi siyikoloni, nokuthi ukuzimela kusho, ngaphezu kwakho konke okunye, ilungelo lethu lokunquma ikusasa lethu kanye nokuveza izifiso zethu. ngenkululeko kanye nokulingana. Bajwayele ukusibona njengabantu bomdabu, cishe njengezingane ezingavuthiwe ezidinga ukutshelwa okufanele zenze ukuze ziziphathe.
Umphakathi wasePalestine ngo-2005 uzwakalise intando yawo ekukhipheni i-BDS Call eyamukelwe kakhulu. Noma ubani obumbene namaPalestine akasakwazi ukuziba lolu bizo futhi aqhubeke egxile ezinhlotsheni zendabuko, ezingasebenzi zokusekela. I-BDS imane nje iyindlela ezwakala kahle kakhulu yokuziphatha nesebenza kahle kwezombusazwe yobumbano nePalestine namuhla.
USilvia Cattori: Kodwa labo sopolitiki abanentshisekelo ekubambeni amabhuleki noma nini lapho benza u-Israel aziphendulele, basenamandla amakhulu engxoxweni. Uyavumelana nososayensi wezombangazwe wasePalestine u-Abdel-Sattar Qassem [15], owathi ยซabasePalestine bangempelaยป kuze kube manje banendima encane kakhulu engxoxweni ngePalestine?
U-Omar Barghouti: Abameleli bangempela bombono womphakathi wasePalestine abavamile ukunikwa ithuba lokulalelwa, ngenxa yokuthi abezindaba abavamile basentshonalanga, izingqungquthela ezinkulu zamazwe ngamazwe, izinhlangano zezezimali zase-Europe nezaseMelika, azinasithakazelo kunoma yisiphi isikhundla esisekelwe ePalestine esikhuthaza ukusetshenziswa komthetho wamazwe ngamazwe. kanye namalungelo omhlaba wonke. Bamema abantu abavumelanayo, "abalinganiselayo" abazovele balahle ilungelo lokubuya, ukwenza isibonelo, futhi bamukele "ilungelo lika-Israel lokuba khona" njengezwe elinobandlululo lobandlululo, ukuze bathole isiqephu samalungelo asePalestine. Yilawo โma-Arabhu amahleโ kuphela afunwayo kulezi zinkundla zomhlaba.
Silvia Cattori: Singakwazi ukubiza lawa maPalestine angazange aziphathe kahle njengamambuka emkhankasweni wawo? Ikakhulukazi kusukela ngo-2002 lapho isimo saba sibi kakhulu kubaphikisi abahlaselwe ukubulawa kwabantu bakwa-Israel ngaphandle kokwahlulela.
U-Omar Barghouti: Ngeke ngibabize bonke ngamambuka, ngoba kukhona zonke izinhlobo zamambuka. Yitemu elihlobene. Yebo sinawo ama-quislings ethu abambisana ngokusobala noma ngokucashile no-Israyeli. Kodwa iningi labantu basePalestine abathintekayo embonini yokuthula bayakhohlisa, banobugovu noma bobabili. Abaningi babo bakulo ngenxa yemali, amalungelo omuntu siqu, futhi bafisa ukucabanga ukuthi basebenzela injongo yabo ngendlela yabo. Indlela eshesha kakhulu yokuceba namuhla ukwakha iqembu elihlangene le-Palestine-Israel elenza noma yini: amalungelo abesifazane; ibhola lokuthula; amalungelo ezingane; itiyetha yokuphilisana; ifilimu yokunqoba izithiyo ezingokwengqondo; imvelo; intando yeningi; ukulandisa okuhambisanayo komlando; ucwaningo lwezemfundo nesayensi; cishe noma yini, ngaphandle kwemizabalazo ehlanganyelwe yokuqeda umsebenzi nokucindezelwa!
Amaphrojekthi ahlanganyelwe we-Palestinian-Israel athi "ayipolitiki" - futhi ngenxa yalokho achemile ngokwepolitiki futhi ayadukisa - aheha imali eningi yaseYurophu. Futhi, ngeshwa, abantu abaningi basePalestine - ikakhulukazi uma bebheka indawo elambile yezinsiza abahlala kuyo ngaphansi kokuhlala - futhi vele ama-Israel amaningi abambe iqhaza kuleli bhizinisi elinenzuzo. Ezinye izicukuthwane zezombangazwe zaseYurophu zizokhokha ngesandla esivulekile noma iyiphi iphrojekthi engase isize ekudambiseni imizwa yabo yecala ejulile ngokuQothulwa Kwesizwe. Amalungelo ethu abalulekile kangako kule ajenda ekhohlisayo nekhohlisayo.
USilvia Cattori: Ngaphambi kokuya ePalestine ngangifana nawo wonke umuntu: Ngangikholelwa ukuthi abantu ababi kakhulu ababizwa ngokuthi "ama-anti-Semites" babekhona ngempela. Kodwa kungazelelwe, ngemva kokubhala isihloko esisodwa noma ezimbili ezivikela amalungelo asePalestine, ngamangala lapho ngithola ukuthi ngangisolwa ngokuba ยซngo-anti-Semiticยป mina. Ngakho, manje, ngiyazi ukuthi leli gama liyisikhali esinamandla kakhulu ezandleni zalabo abafuna ukuthulisa abantu abagxeka u-Israyeli ngendlela ekhululekile nethembekile.
I-Anti-Semitism yayikhona ngawo-1930. Kodwa namuhla, ngibona ukuthi baningi abantu abazondayo ama-Arab, futhi kwesokunxele. Ngokuqondene nami, angikaze ngihlangane nanoma iyiphi i-"anti-Semite", okusho ukuthi umuntu ozonda amaJuda ngoba angamaJuda. Ngakolunye uhlangothi, ngiye ngahlangana nabantu abanesithakazelo ekwenzeni umhlaba ukholelwe ukuthi ยซanti-Semitismยป kuyinto enkulu magnitude, ukuze kuthethelelwe ukuba khona kuka-Israyeli ezweni Arab. Sithini isimo sakho ngalokho?
U-Omar Barghouti: I-Anti-Semitism ayimthetheleli u-Israyeli. Ngicabanga ukuthi kusene-anti-Semitism, abantu abazonda amaJuda ngokuba ngamaJuda, ikakhulukazi e-US naseYurophu. Kodwa lesi simo manje sesisemaphethelweni kunanini ngaphambili futhi asinamandla kunoma yiliphi izwe. I-Islamo-phobia, ngakolunye uhlangothi, ikhuphuka ngokuyingozi ezindaweni ezijwayelekile kulo lonke elaseYurophu nase-US. Inzondo yobandlululo yama-Arabs namaSulumane ngempela "i-anti-Semitism" entsha namuhla, njengoba uNoam Chomsky ake asho.
Kubalulekile kuleli phuzu ukwenza umehluko owodwa ucace kakhulu: ukungqubuzana kwethu kuhambisana neZionism kanye ne-Israel njengenhlangano yamakholoni. Ngimelene nazo zonke izinhlobo zokucwasa ngokwebala, okuhlanganisa ne-anti-Semitism kanye ne-Zionism. Mina, kanye neningi labantu basePalestine, anginalutho nhlobo olumelene nobuJuda noma ngamaJuda njengeqembu lenkolo, lutho neze.
Ngaphezu kwalokho, asimelene no-Israyeli hhayi ngoba ungumJuda, kodwa ngoba ungumcindezeli wamakholoni ophika amalungelo ethu. Uma amaJuda akwa-Israyeli eyeka ubukholoni bawo kanye namalungelo okucwasa ngokwebala futhi amukele amalungelo ethu, asinankinga ukuhlala nawo ePalestine ehlanjululwe, okungafaka nelungelo lokubuyela kwababaleki kanye nokulingana okungenakuncishiswa kwabo bonke abantu, kungakhathalekile inkolo. , ubuzwe, ubulili noma imvelaphi yobuzwe.
Isipho esikhulu kunazo zonke abantu bomdabu basePalestine abangasidlulisela kubahlali abangama-Israeli-Jewish ukubamukela njengabantu abalinganayo abahlala nathi, hhayi ngaphezu kwethu. Akukho nkosi, akukho nceku. Kodwa ukwamukela u-Israyeli "njengombuso wamaJuda" ezweni lethu akunakwenzeka. Abekho abantu basePalestine abanengqondo abananoma yimuphi umuzwa wesithunzi abangamukela izwe elicwasa ngokwebala - elibakhipha ngaphandle futhi libaphathe njengabantu abahlobene - abakhona emhlabeni wabo wendabuko.
U-Silvia Cattori: Iqiniso lihlala liwukuthi "i-anti-Semite" inomthelela onamandla kakhulu kune-"racist", ngoba emazweni amaningi aseYurophu, kunemiphumela engokomthetho kulabo abasolwa ngokuba "i-anti-Semitic".
Akufanele yini sibhekwe njengabalinganayo, amaJuda nabangemaJuda? Kungani kufanele samukele le ndlela echemile yokwenza abantu bazizwe benecala ngento engasekho, kodwa ebonakala iwusizo kakhulu ezinjongweni zenkulumo-ze yempi yama-Israyeli?
U-Omar Barghouti: Yebo, kufanele silwe nalokho, futhi. Kufanele kube nomshikashika wokulahla lonke ubandlululo ngokulinganayo futhi ungamukeli imithetho yamanje yaseYurophu ephatha ukulwa namaJuda njengesigaba esihlukile sobugebengu, okubi kakhulu kunanoma yiluphi olunye uhlobo lokucwasa, kuhlanganise ne-Islamophobia noma ukucwasa abamnyama, ngokungangabazeki kakhulu. izinkulumo ezivame kakhulu zokucwasa abamhlophe namuhla.
Le mithetho ngokwayo iyabandlulula. I-Anti-Semitism imane nje ingenye indlela yokucwasa ngokwebala, akusekho, nangaphansi; kufanele kuthathwe njengegatsha elilodwa lokucwasa ngokwebala, hhayi igatsha elikhulu. Kodwa, noma ngabe yikuphi, akukuthetheleli isimo sika-Israyeli sokucwasa ngokwebala; ngeke kuthethelele amacala ka-Israyeli. Kufanele sihlukanise i-anti-Semitism kusuka e-anti-Zionism. Nakuba okokuqala kuwuhlobo lokucwasa; lesi sakamuva siyisimo sokuziphatha esimelene nokucwasa ngokwebala.
USilvia Cattori: Kodwa lokhu ngeke kwenzeke inqobo nje uma abantu basePalestine bezithola besesimweni sokungalingani, futhi abantu abacindezelwe abakwazi ukusitshela ukuthi baphila kanjani. Esikhundleni salokho, labo abadlala umdlalo "wokujwayelekile" banesiteji, okuwuhlobo lokubambisana!
U-Omar Barghouti: Abamele i-Palestine kufanele bahloniphe futhi bahlangane ngemuva kwesicelo se-BDS somphakathi wethu wokuba kube nomzabalazo wokulwa nezinhlobo ezintathu ezibalulekile zokungabi nabulungiswa kwa-Israyeli, hhayi nje eyodwa - ukuthathwa kanye nokuqoqwa kwezindawo zamakoloni ngo-1967 kuwuhlobo olulodwa nje lokungabi nabulungiswa.
Umnyombo wombuzo wePalestine usalokhu ubulungiswa obukhulu kakhulu, ukuphikwa kwamalungelo ayisisekelo ababaleki, abakha iningi labantu basePalestine.
Futhi kukhona uhlobo lwesithathu lokungabi nabulungisa, oluvame ukunganakwa - umbuso wokucwasa ngokwezikhungo ngokumelene nezakhamuzi zasePalestine zakwa-Israyeli. Noma ngabe i-Israel iqede ukudlwengulwa kusasa, ngeke iwuqede lo mbango wamakoloni. Inhlangano yobumbano eYurophu nasemhlabeni wonke kufanele ihloniphe izwi langempela lenhlangano yomphakathi yasePalestine, kunokuba ikhuthaze ukuxabana kwamaPalestine noma izikhulu ezincane ezivakashela umhlaba ukusho noma yini inqobo nje uma zikhokhelwa kahle. Abamele abantu basePalestine; awakhulumeli amaPalestine.
Silvia Cattori: Ngiyabonga, Mnu. Barghouti ngokuhlaziya kwakho okunokuqonda.
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