Inkinga yezezimali ekhungethe umhlaba wonke iholele ekutheni abaningi bacabange kabusha izakhiwo ze-neoliberal zikahulumeni wase-US. U-Jae-Jung Suh uhlala phansi nesazi sezokuhlalisana kwabantu kanye nesazi semfundiso yezinhlelo zomhlaba u-Immanuel Wallerstein ukuze acabangele ukushintsha kwepharadigm ekucabangeni komhlaba wonke ngenqubomgomo yezomnotho kanye nekusasa lonxiwankulu.
Inkinga? Iyiphi Inkinga?
Suh: Kulezi zinsuku, wonke umuntu ukhuluma ngenhlekelele. Kodwa wonke umuntu unencazelo ehlukile yenkinga. Abanye bakhuluma ngenkinga yezimali, abanye bakhuluma ngenkinga yezomnotho ejwayelekile, okuhlanganisa nokukhiqiza. Kanti abanye bakhuluma ngenhlekelele ye-neoliberalism, inhlekelele ye-American hegemony, futhi, kunjalo, abanye bakhuluma ngenhlekelele ye-capitalism. Ngithanda ukuqala ngokubuza ukuthi usichaza kanjani lesi simo esibucayi.
Wallerstein: Okokuqala, ngicabanga ukuthi igama elithi crisis lisetshenziswa ngokukhululeka kakhulu. Njengoba abantu abaningi beyisebenzisa, imane isho isimo lapho ijika elithile lehla ebelilokhu likhuphuka. Futhi lokho bakubiza ngenhlekelele. Angilisebenzisi kanjalo igama. Kodwa, empeleni, ngicabanga ukuthi sisenkingeni futhi inhlekelele yinto eyivelakancane kakhulu.
Kufanele sihlukanise inani lezinto lapha. Uma uthatha umhlaba kusukela ngo-1945, saba nesimo cishe iminyaka engama-25 lapho i-United States yayinamandla angangabazeki we-hegemonic ohlelweni lwezwe futhi kwakuyiqiniso futhi ukuthi kwakuyinkathi yokwanda okukhulu komnotho. Eqinisweni, kwakuwukukhula okukodwa okukhulu komnotho emlandweni womnotho womhlaba. AmaFulentshi athanda ukuyibiza ngokuthi "Iminyaka Engamashumi Amathathu Enkazimulo."
I-Kondratieff Cycles
Zombili zaphela cishe ngesikhathi esifanayo, cishe ngo-1970, nakuba kunzima kakhulu ukubiza lezi zinto. Ngicabanga ukuthi i-US hegemony iye yehla kusukela ngaleso sikhathi. Ngihlaziya lezi zinto ngokwalokho okubizwa ngezigaba ze-Kondratieff (Kondratiev), futhi sangena esigabeni se-Kondratieff B cishe ngaleso sikhathi. Umnotho womhlaba ubulokhu untenga iminyaka engama-30. Izimpawu ezijwayelekile zokuma zifaka phakathi iqiniso lokuthi izimboni ebezilawulwa kakhulu ezithole inzuzo enkulu azisakwenzi lokho ngenxa yokuthi ezinye sezingene kahle ezimakethe ngaleso sikhathi, ngakho-ke amazinga enzuzo ezimboni ezinenzuzo enkulu ngokuyisisekelo ayawa.
Zimbili izinto ezingenziwa ngalokho. Enye iwukuthuthela izimboni ezindaweni ezinemiholo ephansi ngokomlando. Kungani ungakwenzi lokho kusenesikhathi ukuthi ukwenza kanjalo kubandakanya ukulahlekelwa - ukulahlekelwa ezindlekweni zokwenziwe. Nginale nkinga yenzuzo. I-Korea ithuthuka njengoba amanye amazwe amaningi ethuthuka. Bathatha izimboni ezingenanzuzo encane futhi babe yindawo yazo.
Okwesibili okwenzekayo uma unesigaba se-Kondratieff B ukuthi abantu abafuna ukwenza imali eningi bashintshele emkhakheni wezezimali; ngokuyisisekelo, ukuqagela ngokusebenzisa izindlela zezikweletu zezinhlobo ezahlukene. Lokhu ngikubona ngokombono wabadlali abanamandla kwezomnotho cishe ngeminyaka yawo-1970, e-United States, eWestern Europe naseJapan. Ngikubiza ngokuthumela ngaphandle ukungasebenzi. Njengoba kunesilinganiso esilinganiselwe sokuntuleka kwemisebenzi ohlelweni lwezwe ngenxa yokuncipha kokukhiqizwa kwezimboni, umbuzo uwukuthi: Ubani ozohlupheka? Ngakho ngamunye uzama ukuthekelisa ukungasebenzi komunye. Futhi ukuhlaziya kwami kuthi ngeminyaka yawo-1970 i-Europe yenza kahle, kwathi ngeminyaka yawo-1980 iJapan yenza kahle, kwathi ekuqaleni kwawo-1990 iMelika yenza kahle. Ngokuyisisekelo, ngezindlela ezahlukahlukene - angifuni ukungena emininingwaneni yokuhlaziya ukuthi bakwenze kanjani - kepha ukuqagela kwezezimali kuhlale kuholela ekuqhumeni. Sekuyiminyaka engu-500 ikwenza lokho, kungani kufanele ime manje? Iza ekupheleni kwesigaba se-Kondratieff B. Nakhu silapha. Ngakho-ke lokhu abantu abakubiza ngokuthi yinkinga yezimali imane nje iwumshoshaphansi. Leli bhizinisi lakamuva likaBernard Madoff kanye nohlelo lwakhe lwe-Ponzi olumangalisayo luyisibonelo esihle kakhulu sokungenakwenzeka kokuqhubeka nokwenza inzuzo ngokuqagela kwezezimali. Ngesinye isikhathi, kuyahamba. Uma ufuna ukuyibiza ngenkinga yezimali, yiba isivakashi sami. Lokho akubalulekile.
U-Suh: Okuthakazelisa kakhulu ngesigaba samanje somjikelezo we-Kondratieff, ukusebenzisa isikhathi osithandayo, ukuthi umnotho womhlaba ufinyelela ekugcineni komjikelezo njengoba nje i-US hegemony ibuzwa ngokujulile kunangaphambili. Sekunesikhathi incipha, mhlawumbe iminyaka engaba ngu-30 kusukela yanqotshwa eVietnam. Abaphathi abahlukahlukene baseMelika bazamile ukuhlehlisa le nqubo ngezindlela ezahlukahlukene. Abanye bazame idiplomacy yamalungelo abantu noma uhlobo oluthile lwezinyathelo zenkululeko. Abanye bazame izinqubomgomo ezingokoqobo ngokwandisa amandla ezempi noma ukuphendukela emandleni ezempi asezingeni eliphezulu njenge "Star Wars." Abekho abakwazile ukubuyisela emuva inqubo, kodwa wonke umuntu wayefuna ukuthola indlela ephumelela kakhulu yokuphatha umhlaba ngamandla amancane. Okwenzeka eminyakeni yamuva nje ukuthi uGeorge W. Bush wafika kanye nama-neocons ayecabanga ukuthi azokuguqula lokhu ngenqubomgomo yezempi nokungakhethi. Kodwa esikhundleni sokuhlehlisa inqubo nokubuyisela i-US hegemony, basheshisa inqubo yokwehla.
Inkinga Yezezimali/Izinkinga Zezwe
I-Wallerstein: Nakhu, sesizoba ngu-2009, futhi sisesimweni esinama-multi-polar, esingenakuhlehliswa ngokombono we-United States kanye nesiphithiphithi esiyinkimbinkimbi kakhulu. Futhi sisesimweni esibizwa ngokuthi ukuwohloka kwezimali. Sicindezelekile. Ngicabanga ukuthi yonke le nto yokukhuluma ngolimi iwumbhedo. Sicindezelekile. Kuzoba ne-deflation enkulu. Ukwehla kwamandla emali, ngokucatshangwayo kungase kuthathe isimo sokwehla kwamandla emali okubalekayo kodwa lokho kungenye nje indlela yokwehla kwamandla emali, ngombono wami. Singahle singaphumi kulokho iminyaka emine noma emihlanu.
Kuthatha isikhashana. Manje konke lokho yikho engicabanga ngakho njengezehlakalo ezijwayelekile ngaphakathi kohlaka lohlelo oluphethwe ngonxiwankulu. Isebenza kanjalo. Isebenza kanjalo njalo. Akukho okusha ekuwohlokeni kwe-hegemony. Akukho okusha esigabeni se-Kondratieff B nokunye. Kuvamile lokho.
I-Suh: Ukuntenga komnotho okude, kuhlanganiswe nokwehla kwe-hegemony, kungase kube yingxenye yokusebenza okuvamile kwesistimu yomhlaba oyingqopha-mlando. Kodwa umnotho womhlaba wobunxiwankulu wona uqhuba kanjani? Kungenzeka yini ukuthi sonke isimiso sisenkingeni ejulile ngalesi sikhathi kangangokuthi singase sikuthole kungenakwenzeka ukuphuma enkingeni yamanje? Ngamanye amazwi, uhlelo lomhlaba wonxiwankulu luke lwaba nezinkinga ezimbalwa ngaphambilini futhi lwaphumelela ukuphuma kuzo. Inkinga yamanje iwukwehla okuqinisekile. Kodwa ingabe kungenye indlela emjikelezweni ojwayelekile? Noma ingabe kukhona okwenza lesi sikhathi sihluke ezikhathini zangaphambili zosizi?
Wallerstein: Lona omunye umbuzo, okuyinhlekelele. Kukhona inkinga yohlelo lonxiwankulu, okusho ukuthi sinokuhlangana kwezinqubo ezijwayelekile zokwehla kwamandla emali. Engikucabanga njengenkinga eyisisekelo yesistimu kangangokuthi angicabangi ukuthi uhlelo luzobe lukhona eminyakeni engu-20 noma engu-30 kusukela manje. Liyobe selinyamalele futhi lithathelwe indawo ngokuphelele olunye uhlobo lwesimiso sezwe. Incazelo yalokho engiye nganikeza izikhathi ezimbalwa ezincwadini zami ezimbalwa eminyakeni engu-30 edlule ukuthi kunezindleko eziyisisekelo ezintathu zemali eyizindleko zabasebenzi, izindleko zokufakwayo kanye nezindleko zentela. Wonke usonxiwankulu kufanele akhokhele lezi zinto ezintathu, ebezilokhu zikhuphuka kancane njengephesenti lentengo ongakwazi ukuthengisa ngayo imikhiqizo. Sebefike endaweni lapho sebebakhulu kakhulu futhi nenani lenani elingaphezulu ongalithola ekukhiqizeni selincindezelwe kangangokuthi alifaneleki konxiwankulu abanengqondo. Izingozi zinkulu kakhulu futhi inzuzo incane kakhulu. Bafuna ezinye izindlela. Abanye abantu bafuna ezinye izindlela. Kulokhu ngisebenzisa uhlobo lwe-Prigogine lokuhlaziya lapho isistimu ichezukile kuze kube manje kusukela ekulinganeni kangangokuthi ayikwazi ukubuyiselwa kunoma yiluphi uhlobo lokulinganisa, noma okwesikhashana. Ngakho-ke, sisesimweni esibucayi. Ngakho-ke, kukhona ukuphikisana. Ngakho-ke, kunokungqubuzana okuyisisekelo phakathi kokuthi iyiphi kule miphumela emibili ehlukile engase ithathwe isistimu, ngokwemvelo engalindelekile kodwa inkinga enkulu kakhulu. Singaba nohlelo olungcono kunonxiwankulu noma sibe nohlelo olubi kunobunxiwankulu. Into esingeke sibe nayo wuhlelo lonxiwankulu. Manje, ngikunikeze inguqulo emfushane yayo yonke impikiswano.
U-Suh: Ngakho-ke, noma ngabe uhlelo lwezwe lonke belulokhu luwohloka, lusesigabeni B, bekukhona "nezikhathi eziyingozi" eziningi, ake sithi, ukuze singasebenzisi igama elithi "inhlekelele," ekuqaleni kwawo-1970, 1980 kanye nawo-1990. Futhi isikhathi ngasinye kwakukhona ochwepheshe ababebikezela ukuphela kwesimiso noma ukuphela komhlaba wonxiwankulu. Kodwa isikhathi ngasinye lapho isimiso somhlaba sithola indlela yokuphuma ebunzimeni. Ngeminyaka yawo-70s, isibonelo, umnotho womhlaba wonxiwankulu wathola indlela yokusinda enkingeni kawoyela. Ithole indlela yokuphuma ebunzimeni bama-80s nama-90s futhi. Ngokombono wesikhathi eside, umnotho womhlaba wonxiwankulu ukwazile ukuphuma ezinkingeni ezimbi kakhulu ezifana ne-Great Depression noma ezangaphambili ngekhulu le-19. Ngakho yini eyenza lesi sikhathi sihluke?
I-Longue Durée Perspective
Wallerstein: Uyabona, lesi sikhathi ibinzana elikhohlisayo. Ucabanga ukuthi ukuwa yindaba yonyaka noma ishumi leminyaka, kanti ukuwa kohlelo kuthatha iminyaka engama-50, 70, 80. Into yokuqala okufanele ishiwo leyo. Okwesibili okufanele kushiwo wukuthi konke lokhu okukhombayo yizona kanye izindlela okhiphe ngazo ukungasebenzi. Ngokuyisisekelo, inkinga kawoyela ye-OPEC yayiyindlela eyasekelwa kakhulu yi-United States. Ngempela, umuntu angaze aphikise ngokuthi kwakugqugquzelwa yi-United States. Kufanele sikhumbule ukuthi ohulumeni ababili ababalulekile abaphusha ukukhuphuka kukawoyela ngo-1973 kwakuyiSaudi Arabia ne-Iran, ngaleso sikhathi eyayingaphansi kweShah yase-Iran, uhulumeni osekela kakhulu iMelika kuyo yonke i-OPEC. Umphumela omkhulu walokho kukhuphuka kukawoyela kanye nokukhuphuka kwentengo, owokuqala, empeleni, kwaba ukuhambisa imali emazweni akhiqiza uwoyela, eyafakwa ngokushesha emabhange ase-US. Kwakunzima ngeYurophu naseJapane ukubhekana nalokhu kunokuba kwakunjalo nge-United States. Ngaleso sikhathi, angazi noma uyakwazi yini lokhu, kodwa kwakukhona abantu abavela emabhange, okwathi ngeminyaka yama-70s, baya emazweni omhlaba wonke futhi bakhuluma nongqongqoshe bezezimali bathi: "Ngeke" uyathanda ukubolekwa imali, ngoba, ngemuva kwakho konke, unebhalansi yezinkinga zokukhokha ezikunikeza ubunzima bezepolitiki futhi sijabule kakhulu ukukunikeza imalimboleko futhi lokho kuzoxazulula izinkinga zakho zokukhokha okwamanje. Yebo, wenza imali ngokubolekiwe. Kodwa ngaphandle kwanoma yini enye, udala lesi sikweleti esiqhumayo ngoba imali mboleko kufanele ikhokhwe njalo.
Isikweletu SaseMelika Esingapheli
Kube khona lokho okubizwa ngenkinga yezikweletu, evame ukuvela ngo-'82 ngenxa yeMexico. Ngiyihla ngo-'80 ngoba, ngicabanga ukuthi, iPoland yayiqala. Futhi uma uhlaziya isimo sasePoland, kwakuyinkinga yemalimboleko yohlobo olufanayo, futhi bazama ukuyisingatha ngendlela efanayo ngokucindezela izisebenzi ezahlubuka njalo njalo. Ngenxa yalokho, wonke la mazwe angena enkingeni. Ngakho kwadingeka sithole ezinye izikweletu. Iminyaka yamashumi ayisishiyagalombili kwakuyinkathi ye-junk bond. Uthola le ndlela lapho izinkampani zithenga ezinye izinkampani futhi zenze amabhondi angenamsebenzi futhi zenza imali eningi. Yiqiniso, lapho lokho kuqhuma, kufanele ubheke izindlela ezintsha.
Indlela entsha uhulumeni wase-US kanye nomthengi wase-US. Lokho kungama-'90s kanye nama-2000s. Okusho ukuthi, sithola uhulumeni wase-US ngaphansi kukaBush eba nesikweletu. Uthola umthengi engena ezikweletini ezinkulu, okube sekuvulela ubudlelwano phakathi kweShayina kanye nedlanzana lamanye amazwe, okuhlanganisa neKorea, atshala imali yawo kumabhondi omgcinimafa. Lokho kudala lesi simo esimangalisayo lapho i-US incike ngokuphelele emalini ebolekiwe, kodwa imali mboleko kufanele ibuyiselwe ngesikhathi esithile. Sikuleso sikhathi njengamanje. Amazwe afana neChina - vele, akuyona iChina kuphela, yilona nje okukhulunywa ngalo kakhulu, kuyiqiniso ngeNorway, kuyiqiniso ngeQatar - akulesi simo esibucayi lapho ngakolunye uhlangothi efuna ukuxhasa i-United States ukuze aqhubeke bathenge imikhiqizo yabo kanti ngakolunye uhlangothi imali abayitshalile ilahlekelwa inani ngaso sonke isikhathi ngoba ingamadola. Futhi idola liyehla. Ngakho-ke, amajika amabili awela. Kuzomele ulahlekelwe kakhulu ngandlela thize.
Ngokuyisisekelo, bahamba kancane kancane edoleni futhi idola liyawa. Futhi lokho kwengeza okwengeziwe ekuweni kwe-US hegemony ngoba izinsika ezimbili zokugcina ze-US hegemony eminyakeni eyishumi yokuqala yekhulu lama-21 bekuyi-dollar, manje eseyi-kaput kuze kube manje, futhi amasosha awanamsebenzi.
Akusizi ngalutho ngoba unawo wonke lo mshini omuhle kakhulu, izikhathi eziphindwe ka-10 kunokuba ngingazi ukuthi ubani omunye kanjalo nokunye: zonke lezi zindiza, wonke lamabhomu nakho konke okusesikhathini samanje, kodwa awunawo amasosha. I-Iraq ne-Afghanistan nakwezinye izindawo kukhombisile ukuthi kufanele uthumele amasosha. Awunawo amasosha ngoba ngokwepolitiki akwenzeki e-United States. Isikhathi sokugcina lapho sisebenzisa amasosha angempela aseMelika sathola ukuvukela umbuso okubizwa nge-Vietnam crisis. Ngakho-ke, asiwasebenzisi amasosha, sisebenzisa ama-mercenaries. Ngakho uthenga izinsizakalo zabampofu: abamnyama, amaLatinos kanye nentsha yasemaphandleni emhlophe. Yilokho okwenza i-US Army and Marine Corps. Zisetshenziswa ngokweqile okwamanje, ngakho-ke nazo azikutholi kukuhle ngokwanele ukuthi ziphinde zibhalise. Bese kuba neNational Guard futhi lezo ziyizinhlobo ezisezingeni eliphakathi. Abakaze balindele ukuthi bazochitha iminyaka neminyaka e-Iraq, ngakho-ke abaphinde babhalise. Ngakho, asinamasosha. Ngokuyisisekelo, i-US ayinawo amasosha engawathumela noma kuphi. Konke ukukhuluma ngeNorth Korea, konke ukukhuluma nge-Iraq, konke ukukhuluma ngeSomalia kungamampunge. Awekho amasosha futhi awukwazi ukuvele uwaqhumise ngamabhomu. Akusebenzi. Ngakho-ke, asinawo amandla ahlomile, kungazelelwe wonke umuntu uyakubona lokhu futhi wonke umuntu uthi asikwesabi ngoba awunawo amandla. Awunawo amandla ezempi. Usebenzisa imali yakho emshinini omkhulu, kodwa awusebenzi. Awukwazi ukunqoba impi ngayo. Manje njengoba abantu sebeqaphele ngempela ukuthi, i-US ayinalutho yokudlala.
Nakho-ke. Inenkinga enkulu yezezimali, i-US, okubi kakhulu, ngicabanga. Idola liwuhlobo lwemali eyodwa phakathi kwamandla amaningana kanye namandla owodwa phakathi kwamanye. Ngokombono waseMelika, sisesimweni esibi, yingakho sikhethe u-Obama. Kodwa ngeke enze noma yimuphi umlingo. Okuningi angakwenza idemokhrasi encane yenhlalo yabantu ngaphakathi kwe-United States, okuyinto enhle kakhulu futhi ngiyikho konke. Kunciphisa ubuhlungu, kodwa akakwazi ukubuyisela i-US hegemony emhlabeni futhi akakwazi ukusikhipha ekucindezelekeni komhlaba ngenqubomgomo ethile yomlingo yakhe. Akanawo lawo mandla, kodwa akekho omunye onawo. Sikhona. Yingakho kuyisimo esiyisiphithiphithi esishintshashintsha ngendlela exakile. Akekho owaziyo ukuthi uzoyibeka kuphi imali yakhe. Empeleni akekho owaziyo ukuthi uzoyibeka kuphi imali yakhe. Ingase ikhuphuke futhi ingase yehle. Ishintsha cishe nsuku zonke. Kuyisiphithiphithi ngempela futhi kusazoqhubeka isikhathi eside. Ngakho-ke, yisimo esingemnandi kakhulu ngokwempilo ejwayelekile. Okuyingozi kakhulu ezingeni lomuntu ngamunye futhi, ngicabanga, ezingeni elihlangene. Nginomngane othe naphezu kwe-Mumbai, uya e-India kulolu hambo. Ngathi, "Kulungile." Kuyingozi, yonke indawo iyingozi manje. Iyiphi indawo engeyona ingozi? Kwakujwayele ukuthi lawo mahhotela amahle abeyizindawo ezingezona eziyingozi.
U-Suh: Manje, yibo okubhekiswe kubo.
Wallerstein: Yizona okuhlosiwe. Ayikho indlela. Ngisho, labo okuthiwa amaphekula banayo yonke inzuzo uma bekwazi ukukhetha indawo. Ayikho indlela yokuvikela yonke into. Ayikho nje indlela. Ungakhetha inani elilinganiselwe lezindawo futhi ubeke izithiyo ezinkulu zikakhonkolo. Yilokho i-US ekwenzile e-Baghdad ngendawo eluhlaza. Ngakho-ke, ungaphepha ngokuqhathaniswa, kodwa akuphephile ngokuphelele. Abantu bayakwazi ukungena ngisho nalapho. Kuyiyunithi eyodwa nje, uma ungaphandle kwaleyoyunithi ngaleso sikhathi. . .
Suh: Yini ehlukile ngalesi sikhathi, uphakamisa ukuthi, asingeni nje kuphela esigabeni esineziyaluyalu se-Kondratieff B kodwa futhi sesingene enkingeni ebulalayo yomnotho womhlaba. Uma sesinesikhathi eside sikulesi sigaba sokugcina, le nkinga yezomnotho yenzani? Kusho ukuthini?
I-Terminal Crisis of Capitalism?
Wallerstein: Kusho ukuthi izindlela ezijwayelekile zokuphuma kuyo ngeke zisasebenza. Sake saba nalolu hlobo lokucindezeleka ngaphambilini; omunye ngo'29. Sibe nokudangala okuningi okunjalo: 1873-96 kwakuyisigaba sethu se-Kondratieff B, i-1873-96 yayinjengalesi sikhathi. Kube khona abaningi kule minyaka emine, engamakhulu amahlanu edlule. Indlela ophuma ngayo kuyo, kunezindlela ezijwayelekile zokuphuma kuyo. Izindlela zokuphuma kuyo azisebenzi kulokhu ngoba inzima kakhulu. Izindlela ezijwayelekile zokuphuma kuyo; enye yazo ukuthi udala imboni entsha, ehamba phambili ekhiqizayo, oyilawulayo futhi uthole inzuzo ephezulu futhi uyivikele kahle kakhulu, njalonjalo. Wenza kancane ukusabalalisa kabusha ukuze kube nezimakethe zalezi zinto. Ngakho-ke, sike saphuma kukho ngaphambili, kodwa ngeke kube lula kangako kulokhu. Okusho ukuthi, kungase kube nokukhuphuka. Akunakwenzeka ukuthi kuzoba nokukhuphuka kwesihlobo eminyakeni emihlanu kusukela manje. Igqamisa inkinga ngoba i-upturn ngokwayo iphakamisa amajika amathathu ayisisekelo, iwenza abe phezulu nangaphezulu futhi aphezulu. Kube nokuhlaziywa okwenziwa kusayensi yemvelo kudala, obekukhombisa ukuthi uma ijika liya phezulu libheke ku-asymptote bese lifika cishe kumaphesenti angama-70, 80 wendlela, ngaleso sikhathi okwenzekayo liqala ukuzamazama kakhulu. Yilokho isifaniso. Siseqophelweni elingu-70, 80% kulawa majika amathathu abalulekile futhi lizamazama kakhulu. Kukhona ukuguquguquka okukhulu futhi ayizinzile kakhulu; yingakho sikhuluma ngokuba nesiphithiphithi. Kodwa ayikwazi ukukhuphuka ngamaphesenti ayishumi ngoba iseduze kakhulu. Asizange sibe naleyo nkinga phambilini ngoba ngesikhathi ijika liphansi kakhulu lapha ngamaphesenti angu-10, lasebenza kahle kakhulu. Futhi usuka kumaphesenti angama-20 kuye kwangama-30, kusebenze kahle kakhulu. Uma ufika phezulu lapho, akukho lapho ongaya khona. Yilokho umqondo we-asymptote oyikho. Ngifuna ukuhlaziya lokhu ngokwamaphesenti ezintengo ezingase zibe khona. Iphuzu eliphelele ukuthi awukwazi nje ukwandisa inani lemali oyifuna unomphela ukuthi uyidayise ngoba abantu abafuni ukuthenga ngesikhathi esithile, ngoba nje inkulu kakhulu. Futhi abakwenzi.
Ingabe I-Obama Administration inikeza enye indlela?
U-Suh: Ungabonisa kanjani ukuphathwa kuka-Obama? Okungenani kungacatshangwa, ngokwethiyori, ukuthi angazama ukubhekana nezinkinga ezintathu ophikisana nazo ukuthi ziwumnyombo wenkinga yamanje yohlelo lonxiwankulu: ukukhuphuka kwezindleko zamaholo, ukukhuphuka kwezindleko zokufakwayo kanye nentela. Esinye sezizathu eziyinhloko zezindleko zamaholo aphezulu e-US izindleko zokunakekelwa kwezempilo ezibiza ngendlela emangalisayo, ezikhuphuke kakhulu emashumini ambalwa eminyaka adlule njengoba imboni yokunakekelwa kwezempilo igibele igagasi eliphezulu le-neoliberalism. I-Neoliberalism ifinyelele ezingeni lapho imakethe engavinjelwe isiqala ukulimaza umnotho. Ngakho-ke u-Obama uzama ukuletha uhlobo oluthile lokunakekelwa kwezempilo kwendawo yonke, okungase kube nomthelela ekwehliseni izindleko zamaholo sezizonke. Futhi, izinhlelo zakhe zokusebenzisa imali yasekhaya ezinogqozi zingabonakala njengomzamo wokuqinisa ukukhuphuka kwezindleko zokufakwayo ngokutshala imali engqalasizinda kanye nobuchwepheshe obusha. Umkhankaso oholwa nguhulumeni wokutshala imali "kubuchwepheshe obuluhlaza" ungase uklanywe hhayi kuphela ukunciphisa izinto zangaphandle zemvelo ezengeza izindleko zokufakwayo ezikhuphukayo, kodwa futhi nokudala imboni entsha ekhiqiza isilinganiso senzuzo esiphezulu ngezindleko zokufaka eziphansi. Inkinga yentela izogwemeka ngenxa yokushoda kwemali. Ngakho-ke u-Obama ubukeka engazami nje kuphela ukwelapha ukweqisa kwe-neoliberalism kodwa nokubhekana nezinkinga ezijulile zomnotho wobunxiwankulu bomhlaba. Umbuzo uthi angaphumelela kangakanani ekufezeni lezi zinhloso.
Wallerstein: Angicabangi ukuthi angakwazi ukuhlasela noma iyiphi yalezo ngoba angicabangi ukuthi unamandla amakhulu emhlabeni. Akukhona ukuthi i-US ayilona ibhizinisi, kodwa isesimweni lapho amandla ayisishiyagalombili noma ayishumi futhi izinketho zase-US zilinganiselwe. Bheka umhlangano weRio Group eBrazil. Lapha sinomhlangano wokuqala eminyakeni engu-200, iminyaka engu-200, kuwo wonke amazwe aseLatin America naseCaribbean, lapho i-US, Canada kanye namandla aseYurophu ayengamenywanga. Zonke izinhloko zezwe zafika, ngaphandle kwababili. Obani laba ababehlukile? I-Columbia nePeru - amabili, okwamanje, amazwe amaningi asekela iMelika. Kodwa futhi, abazange bayidube. Bathumela inombolo yesibili noma inombolo yesithathu. Kwafika neMexico. Yebo, uRaul Castro wayekhona, owayeyiqhawe lalo mhlangano. Bathatha izikhundla ezinamandla kakhulu futhi i-US yayingaphandle emakhazeni ngokuphelele.
Izinselelo zaseLatin America naseMpumalanga Asia ku-US Hegemony
Manje i-US inohlelo futhi kukhona olunye uhlaka olubizwa ngokuthi i-Summit of the Americas. Futhi lokho kuhlangatshezwane izikhathi ezimbalwa futhi lokho kuthola zonke izinhloko zezifundazwe zeWestern Hemisphere, ngaphandle kweCuba. Kufanele bahlangane ngo-Ephreli eTrinidad naseTobago. Ngiyamangala ukuthi zingaki izinhloko zezwe ezizovela ngempela.
Kodwa lokho uMongameli waseBrazil uLula da Silva akwenza ukuthi uqede lowo mhlangano ngomunye umhlangano. Lokhu kwakungenakwenzeka ngokuphelele eminyakeni emihlanu edlule. Khona-ke u-Obama uzokwenzani? Angeke akuguqule lokho. Akakwazi ukulishintsha iqiniso lokuthi i-European Union yancoma ukunqoba kwakhe futhi yathi esinqumweni esiphasiswe ngazwi linye "sifuna ukuvuselela ubungane bethu ne-United States, kodwa kulokhu hhayi njengabalingani abancane." Isithombe sicace kakhulu. Kucace kakhulu.
Ezinsukwini ezimbalwa ezedlule ube nomhlangano we-China, Japan, South Korea ugomela ukuthi yini ebengiphikisana nayo ngesinye isikhathi ukuthi izofika, okuwuhlobo oluthile lokubambisana kwezepolitiki phakathi kwalawa mazwe amathathu - alikho i-US elifunayo futhi alikho. okuyinto u-Obama angashintsha ngayo. Angayibusisa. Angakwazi ukukhuluma ulimi olumnandi kakhulu emhlabeni wonke, kodwa lokho akukwenzi i-US umholi. Usacabanga ukuthi i-US ingumholi. Kumele awusebenzise lo mbono. Akekho ofuna i-US njengomholi; abantu bafuna i-US njengomhlanganyeli okungenzeka ezintweni eziningi okufanele zenziwe njengokushintsha kwesimo sezulu, kodwa hhayi njengomholi. Ngicabanga ukuthi izandla zakhe ziboshelwe lapho ngokomnotho womhlaba. Angakwenza yilokho wonke umuntu angakwenza, okuwukusebenzisa umshini wombuso ekhaya ukwenza izinto zentando yeningi ukuze kungabi nokuvukela umbuso kuzwelonke.
Wonke umuntu ukhathazekile ngalokho e-United States, e-China, eNingizimu Afrika, eJalimane. Wonke umuntu ukhathazekile ngokuthi bazoba nokuthile okwenzeka kamuva nje eGreece - ukuvukela okuzenzakalelayo kwabantu abathukuthele. Lokho kunzima kakhulu ukuthi ohulumeni babhekane nakho. Uma abantu becasuke kancane, okuyilokho okwenzekayo manje, bayathukuthela nakakhulu. Bonke ohulumeni bazama ukushweleza kubo. Kulungile. Yilokho angakwenza. Uzokwenza izinto zasekhaya. Uzosebenzisa imali ekwakheni amabhuloho, anikeza imisebenzi. Uzozama ukuthola uhlelo olusha lwezempilo ngalo oluzohlanganisa abantu. Zonke izinto ezinhle, kodwa ziyizinto zesizwe, yizinto zasendaweni. Ziwuhlobo olufanayo lwezinto ezinhle abanye abaholi abazama ukuzenza emazweni abo. Uma eqaphela ukulinganiselwa kwakhe, angaba impumelelo enkulu. Uma engakuqapheli ukulinganiselwa kwakhe, angase ahudulelwe kokuthile.
Ngisanda kubhala ucezu ePakistan; Ngayibiza ngokuthi "Pakistan: Iphupho lika-Obama." Akukho angakwenza ngePakistan. Sesiwenzile umonakalo owanele vele futhi uma ezama ukwenza omunye… kodwa ube budedengu kakhulu. Ingxenye yebhizinisi lakhe lokukhethwa ukukhombisa ukuthi "Nami ngingumuntu oqinile." Ngakho-ke wenza izitatimende nge-Afghanistan, angeke akwazi ukuqhubeka nayo. Wenza izitatimende ngePakistan angeke akwazi ukuqhubeka nazo. Wenza izitatimende nge-Israel-Palestine angeke akwazi ukuqhubeka nazo. Kufanele ayeke ukwenza izitatimende. Kufanele aqale, ngizokusho kanjani, ehlise inkulumo. Kuyoba khona yonke inhlobo yabantu abamtshela ukuthi lokho akumele akwenze, kodwa ngimtshela ukuthi yilokho okufanele akwenze.
USuh: Manje sibona umhlaba ohluke kakhulu. Idola, elisebenze njengemali yomhlaba kusukela ohlelweni lwe-Bretton Woods futhi lasinda enhlekeleleni yawo-1970, libuthakathaka kakhulu. Ibhekene nezinselelo zezinye izimali, ikakhulukazi i-Euro kanye ne-yen yaseJapane, ezilwela ukuba yimali yomhlaba elandelayo. Inkinga yezimali yazamazamisa ukukholelwa edolani, futhi abanye baze basikisela ukuthi selivele liwile njengemali yomhlaba. Ngakolunye uhlangothi, i-US igcina amandla ezempi angaphikisiwe futhi isebenzisa inani elilinganiselwe ekugcineni ukubusa kwayo kwezempi. IWashington isebenzisa kwezempi yayo okuningi njengoba umhlaba wonke uhlangene. Kodwa-ke, amandla ezempi ase-US, noma ngabe ayinkimbinkimbi kangakanani, abonakale engasebenzi, noma engenamsebenzi, ezinkundleni zemidlalo yeshashalazi njenge-Iraq ne-Afghanistan. Sekukonke, izinsika ezimbili eziyinhloko ze-US hegemony ziye zanyakaziswa zaze zafika emnyombweni. Lezi zinguquko ziwathinta kanjani ama-geopolitical cleavages?
Ezinye izindlela zesifunda
Wallerstein: Ah, yebo. Lowo ngumbuzo onengqondo. Njengoba ngikubona manje, mhlawumbe kunezinsika eziyisishiyagalombili noma eziyishumi zamandla e-geopolitical emhlabeni. Futhi lokho kuningi kakhulu. Bonke bazoqala ukuzama ukwenza amadili omunye nomunye futhi babone ukuthi hlobo luni lwamalungiselelo alungile ngoba ngo-10, akekho kubo onamandla anele. Ngakho-ke, sisesikhathini se-juggling. Abantu bazozama amathuba futhi babone ukuthi yini abangayenza. Isibonelo, ngibona i-Shanghai Cooperation Organisation njengenhlanganisela eyodwa engenzeka, kodwa iRussia ayinaso isiqiniseko sokuthi izizwa kanjani ngayo, i-India ayinaso isiqiniseko sokuthi izizwa kanjani ngayo, futhi mhlawumbe neChina ayinaso isiqiniseko sokuthi izizwa kanjani ngayo. Kulungile, mhlawumbe iRussia neChina bobabili badlala i-footsie neBrazil neLatin America ukubona ukuthi bangakwazi yini ukuhlela izinto. I-United States nayo ingawudlala lowo mdlalo. Sisenkathini yokuthi, ngizosho kanjani, ngaphandle kokucaca. Sekuyisikhathi eside ngiphikisa ukuthi inhlanganisela engenzeka, ngaphikisa lokhu ekuqaleni kwesihloko engayibhala ngo-1980, iyinhlanganisela yaseMpumalanga Asia ne-United States, i-Europe neRussia, ne-India ingaqiniseki ukuthi ifuna ukuya kuphi.
U-Suh: Esinye sezigebengu okhulume ngazo ekubhaleni kwakho ukwehlukana phakathi kwe-Davos Forum kanye ne-World Social Forum. Kunjalo, lezi akuzona ama-cleavages ngokwezindawo.
Wallerstein: Kunjalo. Kuwuqhekeko lwezepolitiki.
U-Suh: Uqhekeko kanye nokuqhekeka kwezepolitiki ngokuya ngemibono ehlukahlukene yezepolitiki.
UDavos noPorto Alegre: umumo wekusasa?
Wallerstein: Lokhu kuhlobene nenkinga yangempela. Uma, njengoba ngisho, sisesikhathini sokuphindaphindeka, okusho izixazululo ezimbili ezingaba khona, khona-ke i-Davos imelela isisombululo esisodwa esingaba khona kanye no-Porto Alegre esinye isisombululo esingaba khona, ngokungaqiniseki okuphelele ngokuthi ubani ozophumelela, kodwa ngokusobala, ehluke kakhulu. imibono. Okubalulekile, engigcizelela kukho, ukuthi abantu baseDavos bangazami ukubuyisela ubunxiwankulu. Bazama ukuthola enye indlela, okungukuthi, ngizokusho kanjani, egcina izimiso, ukungalingani, ukubusa, nokunye. Singaba nolunye uhlelo ngaphandle kwe-capitalism eyenza lokho. Umgomo we-Porto Alegre owohlelo lwentando yeningi, olulingana ngokuqhathaniswa. Alukho uhlangothi olunomfanekiso ocacile engqondweni yalo ukuthi hlobo luni lwesakhiwo lokhu okungadinga. Alukho uhlangothi olubumbene ngokuphelele. Okusho ukuthi, ngibona ikamu laseDavos lihlukene phakathi kwalabo abanombono omude kancane kanye nalabo abakhathazeke ngeminyaka emithathu kuphela ezayo, futhi bahamba ngezindlela ezihlukene. I-Porto Alegre ayinaso isiqiniseko ngokuphelele sokuthi lo mhlaba omunye abakhuluma ngawo uzoba luhlobo luni lwesistimu. Futhi abanaso isiqiniseko sokuthi hlobo luni lwesu abazolisebenzisa ukuze bafike lapho. Ngokuyisisekelo, iminyaka emihlanu noma eyi-10 elandelayo, kukhona okwenzekayo ekamu laseDavos; Ngiwubiza ngokuthi "umoya we-Davos," nakuba ngingaqondile "Davos." Kukhona okwenzekayo ekamu "lomoya wePorto Alegre." Kumanje angazi ukuthi izophuma kanjani. Okungukuthi, ngubani ozoba neqhinga elicacile nokuthi liyini, njalonjalo. Ngakho ngalowo mqondo, sisenkathini yokungaqiniseki okukhulu ngokuthi kuzokwenzekani. Futhi lokho kungase kunqume, uma uhlangothi olulodwa noma olunye lunesu elingcono noma umbono ocacile ongaphumelela.
Suh: Uphakamise ukuthi sisezigabeni zokugcina zomnotho wobunxiwankulu bomhlaba. Bese-ke, labo abakhuluma ngendlela yokulondoloza inkinga yezezimali ekhona noma ukuthi bangasungula kanjani indlela yokwengamela ekwenziweni kwezimali ngaphesheya komngcele, ngandlela thile, bazama ukubambelela ohlelweni olufayo. Bazama ukwelula impilo yesimiso esifayo ngohlobo oluthile lokusekela ukuphila. Inkulumompikiswano yabo imayelana nokuthi luyini uhlelo olungcono kakhulu lokusekela impilo, isibonelo ukuthi ngabe ukutakulwa kwezigidigidi ezi-5 zamaRandi noma amaRandi ayizigidi eziyizinkulungwane eziyishumi kusebenza kahle yini. Kodwa ukuncintisana kwangempela kumayelana nohlelo olusha lomhlaba lomlando oluzogcina luthathe indawo yomnotho wobunxiwankulu bomhlaba obukhona manje. Lapha unamakamu amabili abona ngeso lengqondo imihlaba ehlukene, aqhudelanayo ukuze aveze imibono yawo, futhi azabalaza ukuhlela amathuba amasha. Enye yazo ifuna ukudala uhlelo lomhlaba olungaphindaphinda ukusatshalaliswa okungalingani kwamanje kwamandla nokukhiqiza ngendlela ehlukile. Lo mhlaba ungase usekelwe endimeni yentuthuko kanye nomsebenzi wokulawula wombuso kanye nendima yokuphatha yokwengamela yezikhungo zamazwe ngamazwe ezizosiza ukubhekana ngokuphumelelayo nezinkinga zesistimu zezwe lanamuhla. Enye inkambu, nokho, ibona ngeso lengqondo izwe elehlukile elinentando yeningi futhi elinokulingana. Leli iqoqo lemibono nemibono ehlukene, kodwa kubonakala kunokukhula kokuhlangana ngokubaluleka kokuhlomisa abantu bendawo ngendlela ezoyikhulula ekuhlelweni kwempilo. Ziningi izivivinyo ezifuna ukuthola indlela yokukhulula abantu kanye nemvelo emaketangeni okuthengiswa kwempahla, kodwa nokho zibakhulule ebudloveni bobandlululo ngokuxhumanisa imiphakathi yendawo ngendlela eqinisanayo futhi enomsoco.
Wallerstein: Uyazi, yilokho abantu abaphikisana ngakho. Baphikisana kakhulu ngokuthi kusho ukuthini umhlaba olinganayo. Isibonelo, enye yezinto ezingaphansi kwempikiswano enkulu emhlabeni esele iminyaka engu-200 edlule kube yi-Jacobinism. Ngakho-ke, empeleni bekungelona nje kuphela inqubomgomo egxile kuhulumeni kodwa kube umphumela wokulinganisa, njengoba wonke umuntu kufanele afane. Kufanele siguqule abantu babe uhlobo olufanayo lomuntu. Yilokho abebezama ukukwenza. Yilokho iNguquko YaseFrance eyayizama ukuyenza. Yilokho iNguquko YaseRussia eyayizama ukuyenza. Yilokho iNguquko YaseShayina eyayizama ukuyenza. Manje, lowo mbono kaJacobin ubizwe embuzweni onzima. Kukhona abantu abathi, angazi, sifuna ukuvumela ukuchuma kwamasiko amaningi. Kusho ukuthini lokho ngempela?
Ngike ngaphikisa ukuthi yini enengqondo isu elikabili. Ngakolunye uhlangothi, hlala ulwela ububi obuncane esikhathini esifushane kakhulu, ngoba abantu baphila esikhathini esifushane kakhulu futhi abafuni ukuhlehlisela eminyakeni eyi-10 kusukela manje noma eminyakeni engama-20 kusukela manje okufanele kwenziwe namuhla. . Futhi kuhlale kunobubi obuncane. Kufanele, ngesikhathi esifanayo, ugcine iso lakho ebholeni elikhulu lohlobo olusha lomhlaba ofuna ukulakha, futhi lokho kuyindaba yokuxoxisana njalo, ukuxoxisana, ukuhlanganiswa kwemibono.
Suh: Ngiyabonga kakhulu.
U-Immanuel Wallerstein isazi sezokuhlalisana kwabantu owaziwa ngomsebenzi wakhe njengososayensi womlando wezenhlalo kanye nomhlaziyi wezinhlelo zomhlaba. Njengamanje uyisifundiswa esiphezulu socwaningo emnyangweni we-Yale's Sociology. Uthole i-Career of Distinguished Scholarship Award evela ku-American Sociological Association ngo-2003. Ungumbhali wochungechunge lwamavolumu amathathu. I-Modern World-System, umsebenzi wakhe owaziwa kakhulu, futhi I-Capitalism yomlando (Inguqulo ka-1995); Ukwehla Kwamandla AseMelika: I-US Ezweni Elinezinxushunxushu (New Press 2003) kanye I-European Universalism: I-Rhetoric of Power (I-New Press 2006).
U-Jae-Jung Suh unguprofesa Wezobudlelwane Bamazwe Ngamazwe e-Johns Hopkins futhi uchwepheshe wobudlelwane bamazwe ngamazwe eNhlonhlo YaseKorea. Ungumbhali we Amandla, Intshisekelo kanye Nobunikazi Kuzivumelwano Zezempi.
I-Hankyoreh ishicilela uchungechunge lwezingxoxo nezazi zakwamanye amazwe ezihlola izindaba zokukhula komnotho nenhlalakahle yomphakathi, uhwebo lwamazwe ngamazwe kanye nokuhleleka kwezimali, imvelo nentuthuko yezenhlalakahle, ukusatshalaliswa kwemali engenayo, kanye nokukhiqizwa nokusetshenziswa.
Le nhlolokhono iqale ukuvela ngo I-Hankyoreh ngoJanuwari 8, 2009.
Le nguqulo ehlelwe kancane yenhlolokhono ishicilelwe kabusha kusuka I-Asia-Pacific Journal: Japan Focus inikeza imibono ebucayi ezindabeni zamanje kanye nezingxabano esifundeni sase-Asia-Pacific.
I-ZNetwork ixhaswa kuphela ngokuphana kwabafundi bayo.
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