Iu-lan Pappé unguprofesa wezomlando e-University of Exeter. WayenguMfundisi Omkhulu kwisayensi yezepolitiki eNyuvesi yase-Haifa kusukela ngo-1984 kuya ku-2007. U-Noam Chomsky uyisazi solimi, umbhali, umfundisi, kanye nomhlaziyi wezenhlalo.
I-BARAT: Ilungu lePhalamende laseBrithani muva nje lithe liye laluzwa ushintsho eminyakeni emihlanu edlule ngokuphathelene no-Israel. Amalungu ePhalamende aseBrithani namuhla asayina ama-EDM (Early Day Motions) agxeka u-Israyeli ngamanani amakhulu kunangaphambili. Futhi i-UN kanye ne-EU bakugxekile ukusetshenziswa kuka-Israyeli amandla amaningi futhi angalingani emgqeni weGaza. Ungakwazi yini ukuchaza lokho njengokuguquguquka kwesimo sengqondo ngaku-Israyeli?
I-PAPPÉ: Izibonelo zibonisa ushintsho olukhulu emibonweni yomphakathi. Nokho, inkinga isalokhu injalo kule minyaka engu-60 edlule. Le mibono namandla cishe ngeke ihunyushwe esikhathini esizayo esiseduze ibe izinqubomgomo zangempela. Okuwukuphela kwendlela yokuthuthukisa lolu shintsho olusuka ekusekelweni olusuka ngezansi luye kuzinqubomgomo zangempela ngokwakha umqondo wezijeziso nokuduba. Lokhu kunganikeza isiqondiso esicacile kubantu abaningi kanye nama-NGO osekuyiminyaka ebonisa ubumbano nesizathu sasePalestine.
I-CHOMSKY: Kube noshintsho olucace kakhulu eminyakeni yamuva nje emakhempasi ase-U.S. kanye nezethameli ezivamile. Esikhathini esingeside esidlule ukuvikelwa kwamaphoyisa kwakuyisici esivamile sezingxoxo ezazigxeka izinqubomgomo zakwa-Israel. Manje ihluke kakhulu, ngaphandle kokuhluka okuhlakazekile. Abaxolisi ngodlame lwase-Israel manje bavame ukuzivikela futhi baphelelwe yithemba, kunokuba bazikhukhumeze futhi baqine. Kodwa ukugxekwa kwezenzo zakwa-Israel kuncane ngoba amaqiniso ayisisekelo acindezelwa ngendlela ehlelekile. Lokho kuyiqiniso ikakhulukazi ngendima ewujuqu ye-U.S. ekuvimbeleni izinketho zezikhulu, ukubukela phansi intando yeningi, kanye nokusekela uhlelo oluhlelekile lwe-Israel lokubukela phansi ukuthi kungenzeka kube khona ukuxazululeka kwezombusazwe ekugcineni. Ukuvezwa kwe-U.S. “njengomthengisi othembekile” ngandlela thize engakwazi ukulandela izinjongo zayo ezinhle kuyisici, hhayi kulesi sizinda kuphela.
Igama elithi apartheid lisetshenziswa kakhulu yizinhlangano ezizimele kanye nezinhlangano ezisiza umphakathi ukuchaza izenzo zika-Israel kumaPalestine. Ngabe isimo sasePalestine nakwa-Israel singaqhathaniswa nobandlululo eNingizimu Afrika?
I-PAPPÉ: Kukhona ukufana nokungafani. Umlando wamakoloni unezahluko eziningi ezifanayo kanti ezinye zezimpawu zohlelo lobandlululo zingatholakala emigomeni yakwa-Israel maqondana nedlanzana lawo lasePalestine kanye nakulawo asezindaweni ezazidliwe. Ezinye izici zomsebenzi, nokho, zimbi kakhulu kunobandlululo lwaseNingizimu Afrika futhi ezinye izici empilweni yezakhamizi zasePalestine kwa-Israel azimbi kangako njengoba zazinjalo ngezikhathi zobandlululo. Iphuzu eliyinhloko lokuqhathanisa nengqondo yami ugqozi lwezepolitiki. Inhlangano emelene nobandlululo, i-ANC, amanethiwekhi obumbano athuthukiswe kuyo yonke iminyaka emazweni aseNtshonalanga kufanele akhuthaze umkhankaso ogxile kakhulu futhi osebenzayo wokusekela iPalestine. Yingakho-ke kunesidingo sokufunda umlando womzabalazo wokulwa nobandlululo, kunokuthi sihlale isikhathi eside siqhathanisa iZayoni kanye nezinhlelo zobandlululo.
I-CHOMSKY: Ngeke kube khona izimpendulo eziqondile zemibuzo enjalo. Kukhona ukufana nokungafani. Ngaphakathi kwa-Israel uqobo, kunokucwasa okukhulu, kodwa kukude kakhulu nobandlululo lwaseNingizimu Afrika. Ezindaweni ezithathwayo (OT), yindaba ehlukile. Ngo-1997, nganikeza inkulumo eyisihluthulelo e-Ben-Gurion University engqungqutheleni yokukhumbula impi ka-1967. Ngifunde isigaba emlandweni ojwayelekile waseNingizimu Afrika. Akukho ukuphawula obekudingekile.
Uma sibhekisisa, isimo ku-OT sihluka ngezindlela eziningi kunobandlululo. Ngandlela thize, ubandlululo lwaseNingizimu Afrika lwalunonya kunemikhuba yakwa-Israel futhi kwezinye izindlela okuphambene nakho kuyiqiniso. Ukubala isibonelo esisodwa, abamhlophe baseNingizimu Afrika babethembele emsebenzini omnyama. Iningi labantu alikwazanga ukuxoshwa. Ngesinye isikhathi u-Israyeli wayethembele emisebenzini yasePalestine eshibhile futhi exhashazwa kalula, kodwa kudala yathathelwa indawo usizi lomhlaba oluvela e-Asia, eMpumalanga Yurophu, nakwezinye izindawo. Ama-Israel ayezophefumula kakhulu uma amaPalestine enyamalala. Futhi akuyona imfihlo ukuthi izinqubomgomo ezakheka zivumelana kahle nezincomo zika-Moshe Dayan ngemva nje kwempi ka-1967: Abantu basePalestine “bazoqhubeka bephila njengezinja, futhi noma ubani ofisayo angase ahambe.”
Izincomo ezidlulele kakhulu zenziwe ngabalandeli bobuntu abahlonishwa kakhulu e-United States, isibonelo uMichael Walzer we-Institute for Advanced Studies e-Princeton kanye nomhleli wephephabhuku lentando yeningi lezenhlalakahle. Ukuphikisa, oweluleka eminyakeni engu-35 edlule ukuthi njengoba abantu basePalestine “bengabancane esizweni,” kufanele “basizwe” ukuze bahambe. Wayebhekisele kwizakhamizi zase-Palestine zakwa-Israel, isikhundla esenziwe sajwayela muva nje ngu-Avigdor Lieberman ongakwesokudla kakhulu, futhi manje esithathwa ezweni elivamile lase-Israel. Ngibabeka eceleni abashisekeli bangempela, njengoProfesa we-Harvard Law u-Alan Dershowitz, othi i-Israel ayilokothi ibulale izakhamuzi, kuphela amaphekula, ukuze incazelo yegama elithi “amaphekula” “ibulawe ngu-Israel”—futhi u-Israel kufanele ahlose ukubulala isilinganiso esingu-1000. kuya ku-zero, okusho “ukuqothula izihluku” ngokuphelele. Akubalulekile kangako ukuthi abameli bale mibono bathathwe ngenhlonipho emibuthanweni ekhanyiselwe e-U.S., ngempela eNtshonalanga. Umuntu angakubona ngeso lengqondo ukusabela ukube kwakushiwo amazwi anjalo ngamaJuda.
IU-srael usanda kuthi uzoyiduba ingqungquthela ye-UN yamalungelo abantu eThekwini ngoba "ngeke kwenzeke ukuthi kuvinjwe ingqungquthela ukuthi iphenduke umkhosi wokuhlaselwa kwama-Israel" futhi uhoxise nomhlangano nezikhulu zaseCosta Rican mayelana neCentral. Isinqumo sesizwe saseMelika sokuqaphela ngokusemthethweni izwe lasePalestine. Ingabe ukwenqaba kuka-Israyeli ukwamukela noma yiluphi uhlobo lokugxekwa ezinqubweni zakhe kungase kugcine kuholele emuva?
I-PAPPÉ: Umuntu uthemba ukuthi kuzobuya ngelinye ilanga. Kodwa-ke, lokhu kuncike ekulinganiseni kwamandla omhlaba nawesifunda, hhayi kuphela ekuphenduleni ngokweqile kwama-Israel. Okubili, okuyibhalansi yamandla kanye nokungaguquki kuka-Israyeli, kungase kuxhumeke esikhathini esizayo. Uma kukhona uguquko kunqubomgomo yaseMelika noma endimeni yayo enkulu kwezombangazwe zesifunda, kunokuqhubeka nokungaguquguquki kwe-Israel kungakhuthaza umphakathi wamazwe omhlaba ukuthi uthathe isikhundla esibucayi kakhulu ngokumelene no-Israyeli futhi ubeke ingcindezi kumbuso wamaJuda ukuthi uqede umsebenzi futhi ukuphucwa iPalestine.
I-CHOMSKY: Umuntu angavumelana noma angavumelani nalezi zinqumo, kodwa azisho “ukwenqaba ukwamukela noma yiluphi uhlobo lokugxekwa mayelana nezinqubomgomo zayo.” Ngiyangabaza ukuthi lezi zinqumo zizobuyisela emuva noma zithole isaziso esikhulu.
U-Israyeli angafinyelela kanjani esivumelwaneni nenhlangano ethi ayisoze yaqaphela u-Israyeli futhi umqulu wayo ofuna ukubhujiswa kombuso wamaJuda? Uma i-Hamas ifuna ngempela ukuxazululwa, kungani ingayiboni i-Israel?
I-PAPPÉ: Umphumela wokugcina wenqubo yokuthula kungaba ukuqashelwa kwamaSulumane kwezombangazwe endaweni yamaJuda ePalestine naseMpumalanga Ephakathi yonkana, kungakhathaliseki ukuthi kuhulumeni ohlukene noma ohlangene. I-PLO ingene ezingxoxweni ne-Israel ngaphandle kokushintsha i-charter yayo, okungehlukile kangako mayelana nesimo sengqondo ku-Israel. Ngakho-ke ukusesha kufanele kube umbhalo, isisombululo kanye nesakhiwo sezombangazwe esihlanganisayo-okuvumela wonke amaqembu esizwe, ubuzwe, ezenkolo, kanye nemibono ukuze ahlalisane.
I-CHOMSKY: I-Hamas ayikwazi ukubona i-Israel njengoba nje ne-Kadima ingakwazi ukubona i-Palestine, noma i-Democratic Party e-U.S. ingakwazi ukubona i-England. Umuntu angabuza ukuthi uhulumeni oholwa i-Hamas kufanele ahloniphe i-Israel, noma ingabe uhulumeni oholwa yi-Kadima noma i-Democratic Party kufanele aqaphele i-Palestine. Kuze kube manje bonke benqabile ukwenza kanjalo, nakuba i-Hamas okungenani icele ukunxeshezelwa kwemibuso emibili ngokuvumelana nokuvumelana kwamazwe ngamazwe osekunesikhathi eside, kuyilapho i-Kadima kanye ne-Democratic Party benqaba ukuya kude kangaka, begcina isimo sokuphika sokuthi. I-U.S. kanye ne-Israel bagcine iminyaka engaphezu kwe-30 bebodwa emazweni ngamazwe. Ngokuqondene namazwi, lapho uNdunankulu u-Olmert ememezela emhlanganweni ohlanganyelwe weNgqungquthela Yase-U.S. ukuthi ukholelwa “elungelweni labantu bakithi laphakade nelingokomlando kulo lonke leli zwe,” eshayela ihlombe, kungenzeka ukuthi akabhekiseli ePalestine kuphela ukusuka eJordani kuye. olwandle, kodwa nangaphesheya komfula iJordani, isimangalo esingokomlando seQembu Likud okwakuyikhaya lakhe lezombangazwe, isimangalo esingakaze sishiywe ngokusemthethweni, ngokwazi kwami. Ku-Hamas, ngicabanga ukuthi kufanele ilahle lezo zinhlinzeko zomqulu wayo futhi kufanele isuke ekwamukelweni kwesivumelwano semibuso emibili iye ekwazisweni okufanayo, nakuba kufanele sikhumbule ukuthi izikhundla zayo ziseza kakhulu kunezaseMelika kanye ne-Israel.
Ezinyangeni ezimbalwa ezedlule, i-Israel isheshise ukuhlasela kwayo eGaza futhi ikhuluma ngokuhlasela komhlaba okuseduze. Kusengenzeka futhi ukuthi iyathinteka ekubulaweni komholi we-Hezbollah uMughniyeh futhi icindezela unswinyo oluqinile (okuhlanganisa nezempi) e-Iran. Uyakholelwa yini ukuthi isifiso sika-Israyeli sempi ekugcineni singaholela ekuzibhubhiseni?
I-PAPPÉ: Yebo, ngicabanga ukuthi ulaka luyanda futhi u-Israyeli akaphikisani nezwe lasePalestina kuphela, kodwa futhi ne-Arab kanye ne-Islamic. Ibhalansi yezempi yamandla, okwamanje, iphambi kuka-Israyeli, kodwa lokhu kungashintsha nganoma yisiphi isikhathi, ikakhulukazi uma i-US ihoxise ukusekelwa kwayo.
I-CHOMSKY: Ngabhala emashumini eminyaka adlule ukuthi labo abazibiza ngokuthi “abasekeli baka-Israyeli” empeleni bangabasekeli bokuwohloka kokuziphatha kwakhe kanye nokubhujiswa okungenzeka kokugcina. Sekuyiminyaka eminingi ngikholelwa ukuthi ukukhetha kuka-Israyeli okucace bha ngokunwetshwa phezu kwezokuphepha, kusukela lapho enqaba ukunikezwa kwe-Sadat kwesivumelwano sokuthula esigcwele ngo-1971— kungase kuholele kulowo mphumela.
Yini edingekayo ukuze i-US ihoxise ukwesekwa kwayo okungenamibandela kwa-Israyeli?
I-PAPPÉ: Ngaphandle—ukuwohloka kwenqubomgomo yayo yaseMpumalanga Ephakathi, ikakhulukazi ngenxa yokuwa komunye wabasekeli bayo. Ngaphandle kwalokho, kodwa mancane amathuba okuthi, ukuvela kwenqubomgomo ephikisayo yaseYurophu. Ngaphakathi—inhlekelele enkulu yezomnotho kanye nempumelelo yombimbi lwamanje lwamabutho asebenza phakathi komphakathi ukuze kube nomthelela kushintsho olunjalo.
I-CHOMSKY: Ukuze siphendule lokho, kufanele sicabangele imithombo yokusekelwa. Umkhakha wezinkampani e-U.S., okuyiwona ophethe ukwakhiwa kwenqubomgomo, ubonakala wanelisekile ngesimo samanje. Inkomba eyodwa ukugeleza okukhulayo kokutshalwa kwezimali ku-Israel yi-Intel, i-Hewlett-Packard, i-Microsoft, nezinye izici ezihamba phambili zomnotho wobuchwepheshe obuphezulu. Ubudlelwano bezempi nobunhloli busaqinile kakhulu. Kusukela ngo-1967, ongqondongqondo base-U.S. baye baba nokuthandana okungokoqobo no-Israyeli, ngenxa yezizathu ezihlobene kakhulu ne-U.S. kune-Israel, ngokubona kwami. Lokho kuthinta kakhulu ukuvezwa kwezehlakalo nomlando kwabezindaba namajenali. Abantu basePalestine babuthaka, bahlakazekile, abanabo ubungane, futhi abanikezi lutho ekugxilweni kwamandla e-U.S. Iningi labantu baseMelika lisekela ukuvumelana kwamazwe ngamazwe mayelana nokuxazululwa kwemibuso emibili futhi lize licele usizo olulinganayo ku-Israyeli kanye namaPalestina. Kulokhu, njengakwezinye izindlela eziningi, womabili amaqembu ezombusazwe alilungelo labantu. Amaphesenti angamashumi ayisishiyagalolunye nanhlanu omphakathi wase-U.S. acabanga ukuthi uhulumeni kufanele anake imibono yabantu, isikhundla esinqatshiwe kuyo yonke i-spectrum ehlukile (ngezinye izikhathi ngokucacile, ngezinye izikhathi ngokuthula). Ngakho-ke, isinyathelo esisodwa esibheke esimweni esilinganayo kungaba "ukugqugquzelwa kwentando yeningi" e-U.S. Ngaphandle kwalokho, okungase kuthathe izehlakalo eziholela ekubalweni kabusha kwezintshisekelo phakathi kwemikhakha ye-elite.
Esihlokweni esithi Counterpunch uMichael Neumann uphawula ngesixazululo sesifunda esisodwa nesezimbili, ethi, “Isixazululo sezwe esisodwa kwaba inkohliso.” Lokhu kwalandelwa izindatshana ezivela ku-Assaf Kfoury ezinesihloko esithi “Umbuso Owodwa Noma Umbuso Omibili? Inkulumo-mpikiswano Eyinyumba Yezinye Izindlela Zamanga” nekaJonathan Cook enesihloko esithi “Isifunda esisodwa noma ezimbili, noma kunjalo, indaba iwubuZionism.” Uthini umbono wakho ngalokhu futhi ingabe ucabanga ukuthi isixazululo sezifunda ezimbili sisengenzeka?
I-PAPPÉ: Amaqiniso aphansi enza isixazululo semibuso emibili singenzeki kudala. Amaqiniso abonisa ukuthi akukaze kube khona futhi akusoze kwaba nemvume yakwa-Israel futhi ayisoze yaba khona imvume yezwe lasePalestine, ngaphandle kwezwe elingenabuzwe phakathi kwamaBantustan amabili eWest Bank naseGaza ngokuphelele ngaphansi kokulawulwa kwe-Israel. Sekunombuso owodwa futhi umzabalazo owokuthi uguqule isimo nombuso wawo. Ukuthi umbuso omusha kanye nesisekelo somthethosisekelo kuzoba yizizwe ezimbili noma intando yeningi, noma mhlawumbe kokubili, akubalulekile kangako okwamanje. Noma iyiphi ingubo yezombangazwe engangena esikhundleni sesimo samanje sokucwasa ngokwebala yamukelekile. Noma iyiphi ingubo enjalo kufanele ivumele ababaleki ukuba babuye futhi ngisho nabafuduki bamuva kakhulu bahlale.
I-CHOMSKY: Kufanele senze umehluko phakathi kwesiphakamiso nokumela. Singaphakamisa ukuthi wonke umuntu kufanele aphile ngokuthula. Kuba wukumela uma sidweba indlela engokoqobo ukusuka lapha ukuya laphaya. Isixazululo sombuso owodwa awenzanga mqondo, ngokombono wami, kodwa izwe elibili-kazwelonke liyawenza. Kwakungenzeka ukukhuthaza ukuxazululwa okunjalo kusukela ngo-1967 kuya maphakathi nawo-1970 futhi, eqinisweni, ngakwenza, ngemibhalo nezinkulumo eziningi, kuhlanganise nencwadi. Isenzo sasithukuthele kakhulu. Ngemuva kokuthi amalungelo kazwelonke asePalestine engene ohlelweni lwamazwe ngamazwe maphakathi nawo-1970s, kusangenzeka ukumela ubuzwe obubili (futhi ngisaqhubeka ngenza kanjalo), kodwa kuphela njengenqubo edlula ezigabeni eziphakathi nendawo, eyokuqala kube ukuhlalisana kwemibuso emibili. ngokuvumelana nokuvumelana kwamazwe ngamazwe. Lowo mphumela, mhlawumbe ongcono kakhulu ongacatshangwa esikhathini esifushane, ucishe wafinyelelwa ezingxoxweni zaseTaba ngoJanuwari 2001. Ngokusho kwabahlanganyeli bekungafinyelelwa ukuba izingxoxo bezingazange ziqedwe ngaphambi kwesikhathi nguNdunankulu wase-Israel u-Barak. Leso kwaba yisikhathi esisodwa eminyakeni engu-30 edlule lapho amazwe amabili aphambili aphikayo acabanga kafushane ukujoyina ukuvumelana kwamazwe ngamazwe, kanye nesikhathi esisodwa lapho isivumelwano sobunxusa sasibonakala siseduze. Kuningi okushintshile kusukela ngo-2, kodwa angisiboni isizathu sokukholelwa ukuthi lokho okwakungenzeka ngaleso sikhathi akunakwenzeka namuhla.
Kuyintshisekelo ethile, futhi ngicabanga ukuthi kuyafundisa, ukuthi iziphakamiso zesixazululo sezwe elilodwa zibekezelelwa phakathi kokuvamile namuhla, ngokungafani nesikhathi lapho ukumela kwakungenzeka ngempela futhi kuyichilo. Namuhla zishicilelwe ku New York Times, New York Ukubuyekezwa Kwezincwadi, nakwezinye izindawo. Umuntu angaphetha kuphela ngokuthi abhekwa njengamukelekile ngoba akwenzeki nhlobo—ahlala eyisiphakamiso, hhayi ukumela. Empeleni, iziphakamiso zinikeza usekelo ekunqatshweni kwe-U.S.-Israeli futhi zibukela phansi ukukhuthaza okunokwenzeka kuphela kwesixazululo sezizwe ezimbili ngezigaba.
Namuhla kunezinketho ezimbili zabantu basePalestine. Eyodwa ukulahlwa kwe-U.S.-Israeli isimo sabo sokwenqaba kanye nokuxazulula cishe ngokuhambisana nalokho okwakukhulunywa ngakho eTaba, Enye inketho ukuqhubeka kwezinqubomgomo zamanje, eziholela, ngokungenakuvinjelwa, ekuhlanganisweni kwa-Israyeli kwalokho akufunayo: okungenani. , IJerusalema Elikhulu, izindawo ezingaphakathi Kodonga Oluhlukanisayo (manje oseluyi-Annexation Wall), i-Jordan Valley, kanye nama-salients nge-Ma'aleh Adumim kanye ne-Ariel. Ngaphandle kwalokho, nquma kahle lokho okusele—okuzohlukaniswa kube ama-canton angenakusebenziseka ngamaphrojekthi amakhulu wengqalasizinda, amakhulukhulu ezindawo zokuhlola, namanye amathuluzi ukuze kuqinisekiswe ukuthi abantu basePalestine baphila njengezinja.
Kukhona abakholelwa ukuthi amaPalestine kufanele avumele u-Israel athathe iWest Bank ngokuphelele bese eqhuba umzabalazo wamalungelo omphakathi/wokulwa nobandlululo. Nokho, lokho kuyinkohliso. Asikho isizathu sokuthi kungani i-U.S.-Israel izokwamukela izakhiwo zalesi siphakamiso. Bazomane baqhubeke emigqeni esetshenziswayo manje futhi ngeke bemukele noma yimuphi umthwalo wamaPalestina ahlakazeke ngaphandle kwezifunda abahlose ukuzifaka kwa-Israel.
Ohambweni lwami lwakamuva lokuya kwa-Israel/Palestine kwaba sobala (ukukhuluma nabantu, ukufunda amaphephandaba, ukubuka izindaba) ukuthi kukhona okwathusa u-Israyeli kakhulu: ukuduba. Ingabe uyaluthanda lolu hlobo lwesenzo futhi ucabanga ukuthi lungase luthele izithelo?
I-PAPPÉ: Yebo, nginguye futhi ngicabanga ukuthi inethuba lokuvusa izinqubo zoshintsho phansi.
I-CHOMSKY: Ukuduba ngezinye izikhathi kunengqondo. Isibonelo, izenzo ezinjalo ezimelene neNingizimu Afrika zasebenza ngempumelelo nakuba abaphathi bakwa-Reagan bagwema unswinyo lwekhongolose ngenkathi bememezela i-ANC kaMandela njengelinye “lamaqembu amaphekula adume kabi” emhlabeni (ngo-1988). Izenzo zaphumelela ngoba isisekelo sase sibekiwe eminyakeni eminingi yemfundo nobushoshovu. Ngesikhathi ziqaliswa, bathola ukwesekwa okukhulu e-U.S. ngaphakathi ohlelweni lwezombangazwe, abezindaba, ngisho nomkhakha wezinkampani. Akukho okude njengalokho okuzuziwe kuleli cala. Ngenxa yalokhu, izingcingo zokuduba cishe zizobuyela emuva, ziqinise izinqubomgomo ezinonya nezinonya kakhulu kubantu basePalestine.
Ukuduba okukhethekile, okuklanywe ngokucophelela, kungase kube nomthelela othile—ngokwesibonelo, ukuduba abakhiqizi bezempi abahlinzeka ngezikhali kwa-Israel noma i-Caterpillar Corporation, ehlinzeka ngezinto zokusebenza zokucekela phansi iPalestine. Zonke izenzo zabo azikho emthethweni nakancane futhi ukuduba kungenziwa kucace emphakathini ukuze kuphumelele.
Ukuduba okukhethekile kungase futhi kusebenze ngokumelene nezifunda ezinerekhodi elibi kakhulu lodlame nobushokobezi kune-Israel, njenge-U.S. Futhi, vele, ngaphandle kokusekelwa kwayo okuqinile nokubamba iqhaza, i-Israel ayikwazanga ukwenza ukwanda okungekho emthethweni kanye nobunye ubugebengu. Azikho izingcingo zokuduba i-U.S., hhayi ngenxa yezizathu zezimiso, kodwa ngenxa yokuthi inamandla kakhulu—iqiniso eliphakamisa imibuzo esobala mayelana nokuba semthethweni kokuziphatha kwezenzo eziqondiswe kumakhasimende ayo.
Ebuya kwa-Israel/Palestine muva nje, umqondisi weKomidi Elimelene Nokudilizwa Kwezindlu Zakwa-Israel e-UK uthe, naphezu kwe-Annapolis, "ayikho neyodwa into eye yaba ngcono ... Ngokubona lokhu, ingabe ukuphikiswa kwamaPalestine (okungakaze kube nobudlova kuze kube manje) kungabuyela emzabalazweni wezikhali futhi kuqale i-intifada?
I-PAPPÉ: Ngokwethiyori bangakwazi futhi bangakwazi. Umbuzo uthi ngabe izoveza imiphumela ehlukene yini emibhikishweni emibili edlule. Umuzwa wukuthi akunakwenzeka.
I-CHOMSKY: Umbono wami ngaso sonke isikhathi ubuwukuthi ubuholi base-Palestine bunikeza i-Israel nabasekeli bayo base-U.S. isipho esihle ngokuphendukela kubudlova nokukhuluma ngenguquko—ngaphandle kweqiniso lokuthi, ukucatshangelwa kwamasu, ukubheka udlame kuthwala umthwalo osindayo wokuziphendulela. . Namuhla, ngokwesibonelo, akukho lutho olwamukelekile kuma-hawks akwa-Israel naseMelika ukwedlula amarokhethi e-Qassam, abenza bakwazi ukumemeza ngenjabulo ngokuthi isilinganiso sokufa kufanele senyuswe kanjani sibe esingapheli (zonke izisulu zichazwa ngokuthi “amaphekula”). Ngiphinde ngavumelana nabangane ababenokuxhumana nobuholi base-Palestine (ikakhulukazi, u-Edward Said kanye no-Eqbal Ahmad) ukuthi umzabalazo ongenalo udlame wawuyoba nethuba elikhulu lempumelelo. Ngicabanga ukuthi kusewukuphela kwethemba lempumelelo.
Yini okufanele ama-NGO kanye nezinhlangano ezisiza umphakathi ezisebenzela ubulungiswa ePalestine zigxile kukho ezinyangeni ezimbalwa ezizayo?
I-PAPPÉ: Bazi ngcono futhi ngiyangabaza ukubacebisa. Ngicabanga ukuthi basinikeze umhlahlandlela ngekhwelo labo lokuduba futhi uma beqhubeka nezinhlelo ezinjengalezi kungaba usizo kakhulu. Kodwa okubaluleke kakhulu kungaba kuhle uma bengaqhubeka nokusebenzela ukubuyisana nobumbano ekamu lasePalestine.
I-CHOMSKY: Umsebenzi wansuku zonke nophuthumayo uwukugxila ekwephulwani okunyantisayo okuqhubekayo kwamalungelo abantu ayisisekelo kanye namaphrojekthi angekho emthethweni asekelwa yi-U.S. kanye nentuthuko aklanyelwe ukubukela phansi isivumelwano sezikhulu. Umsebenzi ojwayeleke kakhulu ukuzama ukubeka isisekelo somzabalazo oyimpumelelo wesixazululo esicabangela izidingo ezifanele zamaqembu aqhudelanayo—uhlobo lomsebenzi onzima, ozinikele, ophikelelayo wezemfundo kanye nenhlangano onikeze izisekelo zezinye inqubekelaphambili ekufezeni impumelelo. ukuthula nobulungisa. Sengikukhombisile lokho engicabanga ukuthi kuhlanganisa—ikakhulukazi, ukugqugquzelwa kwentando yeningi ngempumelelo emandleni amakhulu abusayo.
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