UJanine Jackson: Njengoba siqopha ngo-Okthoba 11, izihloko zezindaba zikhuluma ngokwesaba nosizi kulo lonke elaseGaza njengoba u-Israyeli enisa izindiza ezibhedlela, ama-mosque nasemakamu ababaleki; imemezela ukuvinjezelwa okuphelele ivimba ukufinyelela kugesi, ukudla kanye nophethiloli; kanye nama-musters ngokuhlasela okungaba khona. Umkhulumeli we-Israel Defence Force uyaqhubeka kucashunwe isixwayiso sokuthi izigcawu eziphuma eGaza ezinsukwini ezizayo “ziyoba nzima ukuziqonda nokubhekana nazo.”
Uma okwedlule kuyinkomba, izigcawu zaseGaza kuzoba nzima kakhulu ukuziqonda uma labo abethulayo begwema umongo—kwezombangazwe, ezomlando, zobuntu—bevuna ukwenziwa lula kwencwadi yezindaba kanye ne-cheerleading yokomela igazi, okulandelwa ukumenyezelwa kwezikhulu zezinkulumo-mpikiswano ezikhuthaza ukungabi nabulungisa nokungahloniphi. izigidi.
Ngaphandle kwezikhathi ezithile, ukuhlanekezela kwezindaba zezinkampani zase-US ePalestine/Israel kwenza kube nzima ukwenza lokho abaningi abakufunayo, ukubona indlela eya phambili ngaphandle kodlame, nobulungiswa.
UPhyllis Bennis unguMqondisi we I-New Internationalism iphrojekthi eSikhungweni Sezifundo Zenqubomgomo, kanye nombhali wenani lezincwadi ezihlanganisa Ukuqonda Ingxabano YasePalestine/yakwa-Israyeli: Isiqalo, manje ohlelweni lwayo lwesikhombisa olubuyekeziwe. Usijoyina ngocingo evela eWashington, DC. Siyakwamukela futhi ku I-CounterSpin, UPhyllis Bennis.
UPhyllis Bennis: Kuhle ukuba nawe, Janine.
JJ: Ngizwa kuthiwa nakuba uhlobo oluthile lokuhlasela kweHamas ngo-Okthoba 7 lwalumangaza kwabanye, akulona iqiniso ngokuphelele noma usizo ukubiza ukuhlasela ngokuthi “bekungalindelekile” ngendlela esiliqonda ngayo lelo gama. Baqonde ukuthini abantu ngalokho?
I-PB: Ngicabanga ukuthi ireferensi iwukuqonda ukuthi ukumelana, okuhlanganisa udlame lokumelana, akuvele kwenzeke emoyeni omncane. Kwenzeka ngokuphendula okuthile. Kwenzeka esimweni sento ethile.
Futhi uma sizimisele ngokuvimbela izenzo zodlame esikhathini esizayo, siqonde izenzo zodlame esezenzekile, kufanele sizilungiselele ukwenza umsebenzi onzima wokubheka umongo, sibheke izimbangela, into eyenzeka ngezikhathi ezithile. inkinga, okwathi kwa-Israyeli, lesi yisikhathi esibucayi esingalindelekile, kodwa nakubantu bakuleli lizwe kubalulekile ukuthi sithathe lezo zinyathelo ezinzima ukuthola ukuthi yini edala lokhu. Ngoba uma kungenjalo simane sikhuluma amazwi okugxeka.
Ukulahlwa kokuhlaselwa kwabantu ngobudlova kufaneleka ngokuphelele. Ezinye zezenzo zamanye amaphekula e-Hamas beziphambene ngokuphelele nomthetho wamazwe ngamazwe, futhi kufanele zigxekwe. Futhi kuyiqiniso futhi ukuthi azizenzanga nje. Zenzeka esimweni seminyaka engama-75 yokucindezelwa kwabantu basePalestine, amashumi eminyaka a webandlululo uhlelo.
Futhi ngokudabukisayo, eGaza, lapho iHamas yazalelwa khona 1987- kufanele sikuqaphele, okubalulekile Usizo lwakwa-Israel ngaleso sikhathi—abantu baseGaza, abantu abayizigidi ezingu-2.2 abahlala kulelo jele elivalekile, elivulekile, uma uthanda, enye yezindawo eziminyene kakhulu ebusweni bomhlaba, baye bahlala ngaphansi kwesimo ukuvimbezela lokho kwabekwa yi-Israel ngo-2007.
Okuxakayo ukuthi lapho sizwa lokhu ucingo olusabekayo evela kungqongqoshe wezokuvikela wakwa-Israel izolo—othe, sizoyivimbezela ngendlela emangalisayo, ngeke kusaba khona lutho olungenayo, ukudla, uphethiloli, amanzi, ugesi—lokhu bekuwubizo lokuzibophezela. ukubulawa kohlanga, bazi ukuthi ngokuvalwa kwezinsalela zokugcina zokuvinjezelwa osekuvele kukhona, babikezela ukuthi umthelela wenqubomgomo yabo kuyoba indlala enkulu, ukoma okukhulu, ukufa kwabantu abaningi ngenxa yokulimala izibhedlela ezingeke zikwazi ukukwenza. baphathe, ngoba izibhedlela ngeke zibe nophethiloli wamajeneretha azo, abathembele kuwo ngoba ugesi awukho owanele eGaza.
Odabeni engilubhalayo ngicaphuna owesifazane waseGaza, 72, owathi, “Eminyakeni edlule, sasinogesi amahora angu-24 ngosuku futhi sikuthatha kalula lokho. Manje lokho kubukeka njengephupho.” Futhi lokhu bekungoJuni owedlule, ngaphambi kwalokhu kuvinjezelwa okusha. Ngakho-ke abakhuluma ngakho ngalokhu kuvinjezelwa okusha kucishe kufane nokukhuphuka komthamo walokho osekukhona.
Ngithole namuhla, futhi kufanele ngisho, njengoba ngijwayele ukuphulwa kwamalungelo abantu eGaza, lokhu kwangethusa: Kusukela ngoMeyi walo nyaka, 20% yazo zonke izingane eGaza bakhubazeke lapho beneminyaka emibili. Bengingazi ukuthi kunjalo, nokho kunjalo. Futhi lokho kungaphambi kwaleli zinga lesijeziso.
Ngakho zonke lezo zinto kufanele zicatshangelwe ukuze kuqondwe—hhayi ukuthethelela, hhayi ukuthethelela njalo—ukubulawa kwezakhamuzi, ukubulawa kwezingane kanye nabantu abadala; okungamukeleki, kufanele kulahlwe; futhi kufanele siqonde ukuthi lokho kuvela kuphi, kungani lezi zinto zenzeka. Ngaphandle kwalokho, asinaso isisekelo sokuthola isu lokunqanda udlame kuzo zonke izinhlangothi.
JJ: Ngifuna ukukhuluma ngokumisa udlame, kodwa izincazelo ezithile nje njengoba siya phambili. Ngimangele ukufunda izinto ezinjengoNgqongqoshe Wezokuvikela wakwa-Israel UJowav Gallant, lapho umemezela ukuvinjezelwa, uthi, “Silwa nezilwane ezingabantu futhi senza ngokufanele.” Futhi-ke ungase uthi, kuhle, lokho kuyinkulumo nje. Kodwa-ke sinezikhulu ze-IDF ezithi, ngokusho Ha'aretz, ngokuzwakalayo, ukuthi ngokuhlasela kwezindiza zase-Israel, “kugcizelelwa ekulimaleni hhayi ekunembeni.”
Akukhona yini emthethweni lokhu isijeziso esihlangene? Kungani lokhu, ekubikeni, kube into ethi "abanye abagxeki" bathi "kungenzeka" "kubonakale" njengobugebengu bempi?
I-PB: Lawa ngamacala empi asobala. Lawa akuwona ubugebengu obungenzeka, mhlawumbe, ngandlela thize. Lawa ngamacala empi asobala, angananazi. Lolu wuhlobo lobugebengu i-Geneva Conventions, okuyilo Article 33 ukuvinjelwa okuqondile kwesijeziso esiyiqoqo—yilezi zinhlobo zezenzo lezo zihloko ezabhalwa ngazo. Ngakho-ke, yebo, lokhu kuwukwephulwa komthetho wamazwe ngamazwe, isikhathi, ukumisa ngokugcwele.
Kodwa-ke, akumangalisi noma okusha ukuthi umthetho wamazwe ngamazwe awubhekwa lapho ukwephulwa kwawo kwenziwa ngabalingani abaseduze base-United States, futhi u-Israyeli uphezulu ohlwini lwalolo hlobo lokuvikelwa.
Lena indaba endala. Umthetho wamazwe ngamazwe awubekwa ngendlela esiwuzwa ngayo ngokuqhubekayo, ngokufanelekile, ngokuphulwa kwe-Russian, isibonelo, e-Ukraine. Lokho kwephulwa komthetho kube kukhulu, futhi ngokufanelekile kubiziwe. Singakwazi ukubona ubuzenzisi be-US ukuthi iyona ezobabiza, uma kubhekwa imilando yase-US yokwephulwa komthetho wamazwe ngamazwe. Kodwa noma kunjalo, kunembile ukubiza lokho kwephulwa.
Umbono wokuthi ngandlela thize izenzo zakwa-Israyeli, isijeziso esihlangene, ukwehluleka ukuhlukanisa phakathi kwezakhamuzi kanye nabalweli-zonke lezi zinto ziwukwephulwa okuqondile komthetho wamazwe ngamazwe. Amacala empi. Futhi ukwesekwa kwe-United States ku-Israel kudlulela ngalé kuka-$3.8 billion ngonyaka esiwunikeza njengesisekelo sombutho wezempi wakwa-Israyeli, kodwa futhi kuhlanganisa nokuvikelwa kuka-Israyeli. eNhlanganweni Yezizwe kusukela ekubhekaneni necala, umshwalense we-International Criminal Court ukuthi izikhulu zakwa-Israel, kungakhathaliseki ukuthi izikhulu zezombangazwe noma zempi, azinacala.
Lokhu akunangqondo, futhi kwenza iMelika, futhi ngokungananaziyo thina njengabakhokhi bentela, isenze ingxenye yaleyo nqubomgomo yobandlululo nengcindezelo. Kusenza sibe nesandla. Sivumela. Lokho $ 3.8 billion-okuyinto encane yesabelomali sethu sezempi, esisondela ezigidini eziyizigidi zamaRandi kulo nyaka, amasenti angu-53 kuwo wonke ama-dollar discretionary dollar aya ngqo kwezempi yethu-kodwa ngaphandle kwalokho, siyakhokha. 20% yesabelomali samasosha akwa-Israel. Asikwenzi lokho nanoma yiliphi elinye izwe.
JJ: Ngifunde nje UJames Zogby ethi ukuthi uMnyango Wezwe usule izitatimende ezimbili zokuqala owawuzikhiphile, unxusa ukuthi kuvinjwe futhi kuvikelwe izakhamuzi, futhi wazishintsha ukuze unikeze u-Israyeli ukwesekwa okuphelele kwe-US. Futhi izinkulumo eziningi esizizwayo zimayelana nokuthi amaPalestine kufanele enzeni, noma ukuthi u-Israyeli kufanele enzeni. Futhi lolo hlobo lwenkulumo luyinto engaqondakali, futhi mhlawumbe kulula ukuthi izakhamuzi zase-US zikwenze, kunokubhekana nalokho thina njengezakhamuzi zase-US okufanele sikwenze futhi esingase sikwenze. Ngakho bengifuna ukukubuza ngalokho nje. Ngaphandle kokulila, ngaphandle kokugxeka nokubuka ngokwethuka, iyiphi indawo esingahlala kuyo njengezakhamuzi zase-US?
I-PB: Okuxakayo futhi mhlawumbe okudabukisayo ngandlela thize, uma kubhekwa ukujula kwale nkinga, okusazokwenzeka, ngiyesaba, ngamanani nangesihluku, kuzoba kubi kakhulu kunezibalo ezinonya neziphezulu zabashonile nabalimele nhlangothi zombili sekwenzekile. Esizokubona eGaza, njengoba ukuqhuma kwamabhomu kwa-Israel kudlondlobala, njengoba ngingangabazi ukuthi kuzokwenzeka ezinsukwini ezizayo, kuzoba yinhlekelele, futhi kusho ukuthi sinesibopho sangempela.
Okufanele sikwenze, ngicabanga ukuthi, ukumisa uhulumeni wase-US, ekwenzeni lokho okushiwo yisikhungo sakhe - uma ngingaqamba umusho onjalo, angiqiniseki nokuthi lokho kunengqondo, kodwa ngicabanga ukuthi abalaleli bazokwenza. mhlawumbe uqonde ukuthi ngiqonde ukuthini. Kusengathi isikhungo seCongress, isikhungo soMnyango Wezwe, isikhungo se-White House sisabela ngezindlela ezithile lapho umbono uthi i-Israel, okokuqala ngqa, ibhekene nohlobo lokwethuka olulenzile. AmaPalestine izikhathi eziningi ngaphambili. Futhi lokho kusho ukuthi sinesibopho sokwandisa ingcindezi ebesivele siyibiza kumalungu ethu oKhongolose ukuthi ayeke ukuthi kufanele sithumele ezinye izikhali.
Kwakukhona okuthile okuthakazelisa kakhulu, ku Inkulumo kaBiden ngo-Okthoba 11, washo izinto ezimbili engazithola ziwusizo kakhulu, ngendlela exakayo. Komunye wabo, uthe wayesanda kuphuma ocingweni noNdunankulu uNetanyahu kwa-Israel, wathi, “Ngamtshela ukuthi uma i-United States ihlangabezana nalokho u-Israyeli abhekene nakho, impendulo yethu izoshesha, inqume futhi ibe namandla. ” Futhi ngacabanga, uyazi, abantu abaningi bathi lokhu kungu-9/11 ka-Israyeli. Futhi sikubonile lokho, kanye nempendulo yethu kwaba okusheshayo futhi okunqumayo futhi kuyamangaza. Futhi yona uhlulekile. Impendulo yethu kwaba yimpi e-Afghanistan bese kuba yimpi e-Iraq, futhi bobabili bahluleka.
Uqhube wathi, “Siphinde saxoxa ngokuthi imibuso yentando yeningi efana ne-Israel ne-United States inamandla futhi ivikeleke kakhulu uma senza ngokulandela umthetho.” Wayeqinisile. Kunjalo. Futhi asizange. Futhi ngakho kwehlulekile.
Kwakuyisikhathi esingavamile. Futhi angicabangi ukuthi noma ubani ku-commentariat, uma uthanda, wemithombo yezindaba evamile, ukubambe lokho, ukusho ukuthi yilokho kanye esakwenza ngo-9/11, futhi kwehlulekile. Yehlulekile ukwenza noma yiziphi izinto ebesithi izozenza.
JJ: Kuyamangaza, futhi kubonisa ngempela uhlobo lokuqonda kwesibuko se-funhouse, empeleni, umlando wakamuva kakhulu esike saphila kuwo. Futhi kungiletha kulo mbuzo wokugcina, ngoba, ngezindlela eziningi, ngokwemithombo yezindaba, cishe bengingase ngiphinde ngiveze inhlolokhono esayenza nawe eminyakeni emihlanu edlule noma engu-15 edlule, ngokwesimo esishodayo, sokululaza ubuntu. . Kodwa iqiniso kanye nemibono babe zishintshile, ziyashintsha, kuleli zwe. Kunokuvuleka okukhulayo kokugxekwa kuka-Israyeli kanye nombuso wobandlululo. Futhi ngifuna ukukubuza, ingabe ucabanga ukuthi lokhu kungase kuqondise kabusha noma kunciphise lokho kuvuleka okukhulayo, noma ucabangani?
I-PB: Uyazi, Janine, ngicabanga ukuthi uphakamisa iphuzu elibaluleke ngempela. Futhi kusukela lapho le nhlekelele, le nkinga ethile, iqubuke ngoMgqibelo ekuseni, bengilokhu ngikhathazeke ngakho impela. Sengibhale kaningi, ngikhuluma kakhulu ngempumelelo yenhlangano yethu, inhlangano yamalungelo ePalestine, ukuthi sikwazile kanjani ukuguqula inkulumo. Akubanga lula. Akusheshanga, kodwa kule minyaka engu-20, 25 edlule, sibone uguquko olungajwayelekile, uguquko olukhulu enkulumweni yomphakathi, ushintsho olukhulu enkulumweni yabezindaba—hhayi lukhulu njengasezingeni lomphakathi, kodwa namanje-kanye nokuqala kokushintsha ezingeni lenkulumo yezepolitiki/yenqubomgomo.
Kube kukhulu. Unezinto ezinjengokuthi, uma sibheka amavoti, ku-a i-poll yamuva, bekunobufakazi bokuthi ama-25% amaJuda aseMelika akholelwa ukuthi i-Israel iyizwe lobandlululo. Amaphesenti angamashumi amathathu nesishiyagalombili amaJuda asemasha akholelwa lokho, kanti ama-44% amaDemocrats athi acabanga ukuthi i-Israel ifana nobandlululo. Lawo amashifu amakhulu. Ziyizinguquko ezinkulu. Futhi ngicabanga ukuthi lokho kuyisihluthulelo kakhulu.
Sibona ezingeni lenqubomgomo, sabona ngo-2021 lapho u-Israyeli ehlasela iGaza, hhayi ngisho nokubi njengalokhu, kodwa ngendlela esabekayo eyabulala abantu abaningi eGaza ngokuqhunyiswa kwamabhomu, ngaphandle kokuthi amaqembu amaningana ama-congresspeople nama-senator. babefuna ukuthi kumiswe ukulwa ngesikhathi lapho umongameli wabo, iqembu labo enqaba ukusekela ukumiswa kokudubula.
Okubaluleke kakhulu kunanoma yikuphi kwalokhu, bengicabanga ukuthi, bekuyiqembu labasebenzi abangama-500 ababesebenza emkhankasweni weDemokhrasi, abantu ababebeke uBiden esikhundleni, ababehola imikhankaso yezwe lonke nedolobha lonke, abangama-500 kubo basayina ngendlela emangalisayo. Incwadi eyakhuluma ngeminyaka engama-75 yengcindezelo kwabasePalestine, njll., futhi yabiza ukuthi kumiswe ukulwa.
Futhi lokho eyakusho, ngaphandle kombhalo wencwadi ngokwayo, kwakusho ukuthi labo basebenzi bomkhankaso abangama-500, okufanele bathole umsebenzi omusha minyaka yonke emkhankasweni omusha, bafinyelele esiphethweni sokuthi ukugxeka u-Israyeli akusekho ukuzibulala kwezombusazwe, ukuthi kwakungeke kubavimbe ekutholeni umsebenzi. Futhi ngacabanga ukuthi leso kwakuyisibonelo esihle kakhulu sokuthi lolu shintsho lwenkulumo luye lwaqhubeka kanjani.
Manje ingozi iwukuthi, ngempendulo engokomzwelo kulokho okwenzeke ezinsukwini ezimbalwa ezedlule-futhi kufanele sicace, sikubonile lokhu ezibonelweni zangaphambili, eSiriya nakwezinye izindawo, ukuthi izinguqulo zethelevishini nezevidiyo ze-up- ubudlova obuseduze nobomuntu siqu busabela ngentshiseko kakhulu kunalokho okwenzeka lapho umshayeli wendiza ewisa ibhomu, okungenzeka ukuthi libulala abantu abaningi kakhulu. Akumangalisi; impendulo yomuntu kakhulu, kodwa iyimpendulo edukisayo.
Futhi lapho ilokhu iphindaphindwa, kaninginingi, hhayi nje ezinkundleni zokuxhumana, kodwa nasemithonjeni yezindaba ejwayelekile, amanye awo okungamavidiyo angamanga, asatshalaliswa futhi aphindaphindwa kwezinye izitolo ezijwayelekile, kukhona Izinga lokuphendula okungokomzwelo okunzima kakhulu ukuzibandakanya nalo kunezimpendulo zokubulawa kwabantu abaningi kakhulu, uma uthanda, lapho kubulawa abantu abaningi kakhulu, ngaphansi kwamabhomu ase-US noma ngaphansi kwemicibisholo yase-Israel, kunanini ngaphambili babulawa izenzo zobudlova zomuntu ngamunye. kuthusa kakhulu ukukubuka noma ukuzindla.
Ngakho-ke sibhekene nenselelo enkulu entsha njengamanje, yokuthi okungenani singalahlekelwa yilezo ntuthuko esizenzile endleleni inkulumo eya phambili ngayo. Ngeke kube lula, kodwa ngeke kuzenzekele. Yinto okuzomele siyisebenzele. Futhi izinhlangano ezifana ne-FAIR zidlala indima enkulu ekusikhumbuzeni lokho, zisikhumbuza ukuthi inkulumo yabezindaba ibumba kanjani ukuthi siyiqonde kanjani.
Enye yezinto ebengikhuluma ngayo kakhulu kulezi zinsuku ezimbalwa ezedlule yilo mbono wokuthi ukuqonda kwethu umlando kanye nokuqonda kwethu iqiniso kwakhiwe uma siqala iwashi. Uma siqala iwashi ngoMgqibelo ekuseni, besiyoba nenguqulo eyodwa yalokho okwenzekile, lapho lawo makhulu ama-Hamas fighters ehlasela u-Israyeli, ephuma ejele elibiyelwe ngodonga elaliyiGaza, futhi eqala ukuhlasela, hhayi nje ukufakwa kwezempi nezikhulu zempi, kodwa ngeshwa bahlasela nezakhamuzi ngendlela esabekayo. Indaba eyodwa leyo.
Indaba ebanzi, uma siqala iwashi a isonto ngaphambili, besizwa into ehluke ngokuphelele yokuthi izinto zaqala kanjani. Besingabuyisela iwashi emuva. Singabuyela emuva ukuhlasela kokugcina eGaza ngo-2021. Singase siyibuyisele emuva ekuqaleni kwe ukuvinjezelwa kweGaza ka-2006 no-2007. Singase siyibuyisele emuva ekuqaleni kwe umsebenzi waseGaza ngo-1967. Ngakho lapho siqala iwashi sinquma indlela esikuqonda ngayo esikubonayo phambi kwamehlo ethu.
JJ: Besilokhu sikhuluma no-Phyllis Bennis ovela kuphrojekthi ye-New Internationalism e-Institute for Policy Studies. Ungathola ucezu lwakhe lwakamuva, “Njengoba I-Israel neGaza Iqhuma, I-US Kumele Izibophezele Ekuqedeni Ubudlova—Bonke Ubudlova,” at TheHill.com. Phyllis Bennis, siyabonga kakhulu ngokuhlanganyela nathi kuleli sonto I-CounterSpin.
I-PB: Ngiyabonga, Janine. Ngiyajabula ukuba nawe.
I-ZNetwork ixhaswa kuphela ngokuphana kwabafundi bayo.
Nikela