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DB: Now in 1996, in March, then again in October while you were in Congo, there were several Spanish priests and nuns killed in Rwanda.  Do you know anything about these incidents?

 

JCN: What happened there, every outsider…priests, nuns, none of them could survive because they were accused of supporting the former regime.  The RPF killed many of the priests all across the country and as you know many of Rwanda‘s religious figures were assassinated in Gakurizo.  They slaughtered bishops, nuns, and priests, especially Hutus.  Another reason to kill the Spanish priests was because they helped resist the Tutsi monarchy in the past.  They empowered Hutu with education through their missions.  Also, the Spanish priests knew the RPF massacred Bagogwe,1 who the RPF said were killed by Interahamwe.  The RPF believed the Spanish priests and nuns were reporting RPF massacres of Hutu to the international community and NGOs.

 

DB: Do you believe now, we saw that the RPF was particularly violent towards Hutu in the north, towards the so-called “Bakiga.”

 

JCN: Yes.

 

DB: Do you believe that comes from their resistance to the monarchy?  That Paul Kagame was carrying out an old feud so-to-speak?

 

JCN: Yes, I believe that is true.  Even before when we had the monarchy in the country, it was rejected in the north and many of my fellow citizens, I mean those who were educated, were still threatened for not collaborating with the regime.  I remember in 1996, Tito Rutaremara, the RPF’s main philosopher, his brother Jill Rutaremara,2 General Nyamwasa, and Antoine Mugesera, another RPF philosopher who actually is changing the history of Rwanda in Butare University, organized a meeting were they wanted to learn why the Bakiga did not accept a monarchy and minority rule.  It was held in Ruhengeri town.  Dr. Twagirayezy was there as an attendee and he actually wants to testify about this event as I told you before.  They brought a document for everyone to sign as a contract agreeing to RPF rule in order to bring security back to the region and the person who signed it took an oath not to undermine the RPF’s efforts.  Many of the people that gathered there were killed; especially those who refused to sign the document.

 

DB: Some individuals have brought up Paul Kagame’s own unique bloodlines that extend back to the monarchy.  Does this influence his domestic policies?

 

JCN: In my country, we have a president, but we really have an unofficial monarchy.  You know, in that country we have two competitive clans: Abanyiginya and Abega.  They have been killing each other for power, you know, and whatever clan was in charge of the monarchy always killed local Hutu chiefs to expand their influence.  Have you ever heard about the Kalinga?

 

DB:  Yes, I have heard about that.  It was a symbolic royal war drum.

 

JCN: Yea, they hung the testicles of Hutu from it for about four centuries.

 

DB: I have heard of it before, but I always wondered if it was real or just propaganda to demonize the monarchy.

 

JCN: It’s true.  It’s true.

 

DB: Do you think his ties to the royal family help him keep the loyalty of some RPF members? 3

 

JCN: I know that he is related to one of the royal family, I don’t know, one of them was killed in the genocide.

 

DB: Oh, yes.  That was his aunt.  It’s his aunt Rosalie Gicanda.  She was the Queen Mother.

 

JCN: Yes, I heard about that, but I already know, Kagame does not want the rule of a monarchy to become official because the king has to answer before the Tutsi council, “Abiru”, a council that holds the real power over the country.  That is exactly the same council used in gacaca courts today to decide every Hutu’s fate.

 

DB: Are you saying that if he formally becomes king, he would have to answer to somebody?

 

JCN: Yes, and this is the big issue.   Kagame is from the Abega tribe, so he hates the Abanyiginya who for four centuries were ruling the country before a revolution took place in 1959 to overthrow the monarchy and install a Republican regime.  He is the king of Rwanda under the president’s label.  He decides everyone’s destiny, takes or gives to anybody he likes or dislikes.  The entire power is in his hands.  Whoever says anything contrary to his will gets arrested or killed by his death squads.  He says how everything must be done.  I think you understand this.

 

DB: I saw President Kagame speak at Amahoro Stadium on Liberation Day last year and it was particularly remarkable how different his attitude was during his speech from his trips abroad.  His delivery and word choice had so much more conviction and was so stern compared to when he is speaking abroad.

 

JCN: Also, in 1996, Kagame said that he would destroy the refugee camps in Congo anytime he wanted due to the fact they did not listen to him when he asked them to return to Rwanda.  Then, after they forcibly returned, he invited the public to Amahoro Stadium and he had a group of Hutu refugees march before everyone in the stadium.  He said, “You see these Interahamwe marching in front of you.

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