UAMY KUHLE: Amajoni akwaSirayeli atyhala ngokunzulu
Umkhosi wamaSirayeli uyaqhubeka nokujikeleza
Inani lababhubhileyo ngoku limi malunga nama-900 abantu basePalestine, uninzi lwabo bengabemi, kubandakanya abantwana abangama-275. Abanye abantu abangama-4,100 basePalestina benzakele. Ishumi elinesithathu lamaSirayeli abulewe, kubandakanywa abantu abathathu ababethwa ngumlilo werokhethi kunye namajoni alishumi. Abane kula majoni basweleke kwiziganeko zomlilo zobuhlobo.
Amaziko oncedo alumkisa ngentlekele yoluntu
NgoLwesibini, iNkulumbuso yase-Israel u-Ehud Olmert uthe uhlaselo lusondele kwiinjongo zalo kodwa uhlaselo luza kuqhubeka. U-Olmert ukwathethe ephikisa ikhwelo leBhunga lezoKhuseleko le-UN lokuba kupheliswe imfazwe ngoko nangoko, esithi, โAkukho mntu kufuneka avunyelwe ukuba asithathele isigqibo ukuba siyavunyelwa ukuba sigwayimbe. Zombini iHamas kunye
Ngoku sijika kwingxoxo-mpikiswano ngalo mba. Igqwetha uLanny Davis ukunye nathi. Ungumcebisi ophezulu kunye nesithethi seProjekthi yakwaSirayeli, owayesakuba ngumcebisi okhethekileyo kuMongameli uClinton. Ujoyina nathi ukusuka eWashington, DC Ujoyina nathi kumgca osuka eBhershebha, uSirayeli nguNeve Gordon. Ungusihlalo weSebe lezoPolitiko kunye noRhulumente, iYunivesithi yaseBen-Gurion yaseNegev. Ungumbhali we Umsebenzi kaSirayeli.
Siyanamkela nobabini Intando yeninzi Ngoku! Lanny Davis, uluxhasa ngokupheleleyo uhlaselo lwamaSirayeli. Sixelele ukuba kutheni.
LANNY DAVIS: Ilungelo lokuzikhusela. Xa ubunqolobi bubulala abantu abamsulwa ngabom, akukho sizwe siphucukileyo ehlabathini esingayi kuhlasela ngasemva ukuzama ukunqanda obo bunqolobi. Ndisebenzisa "ubugrogrisi" ngebinzana elichazwe ngokukodwa. Xa iqela lidubula ukubulala abantu abamsulwa ngabom ngenjongo yezopolitiko, kuquka nabemi bomntu ukuba babe sesichengeni sokufa ngeenjongo zopolitiko, bubugrogrisi obo. Ngoko ndiyalixhasa ilungelo lokuzikhusela kubunqolobi, njengoko naliphi na ilizwe beliya kwenza ukuba oku bekusenzeka, ndiyakholwa. Kwaye iUnited States ngokuqinisekileyo iya kuba njalo. Ukuba i-Rochester yayivezwe kwii-mortars kunye neerokethi ezivela eMontreal, ndiyakholelwa ukuba i-United States yayingayi kuhlala ingenzi nto kwaye ivumele abantu baseCanada ukuba benze oko. Ke ndicinga ukuba elona lungelo lokuqala nelona liphambili lilungelo lokuzikhusela ngokuchasene nobunqolobi, okubulala ngabom abahlali.
UAMY KUHLE: Kwaye umba wobungakanani, inani labantu esibabone beswelekile, kufutshane nama-900 amaPalestine, ngaphezulu kwama-200 kubo abantwana, bengabemi ngokugqithisileyo, xa kuthelekiswa nama-Israel alishumi elinesithathu aswelekileyo, ishumi kubo ingamajoni, abane kubo kumlilo wobuhlobo.
LANNY DAVIS: Ewe, kuyakhathaza kakhulu ukuba kukho ukufa nokubandezeleka kwabantu abamsulwa eGaza. Ndibuhlungu kwaye ndiyazisola kuba njengomntu, njengomMelika, njengomYuda oye waxhasa ilizwe lasePalestina kususela ebuntwaneni kwaye bendisoloko ndigxeka ukutyhubela iminyaka yorhulumente wase-Israel engalixhasi ilizwe lasePalestine kude kube mva nje. Ngoko ke ndibuhlungu ngenxa yaloo manani, kodwa andiyiqondi igama elithi "ukungalingani."
Inombolo yokuqala, ukuba ngumntwana omnye, ukuba ngumntwana wakho owabulawa ngabom ngumnqolobi, kwaye ucele urhulumente wakho ukuba aphendule, kwaye ukuze uphendule, abantu abaphehlelela iirokethi babeka iirokethi zabo phakathi kwabantwana besikolo kunye nabantu abangenatyala. ngabom-kwaye yinyani engaphikiswanga yokuba iHamas ifumene iziqhushumbisi zayo zerocket ngabom phakathi kwabantu abasezikolweni, phantsi kwezibhedlele-ke elo xesha lokufa kabuhlungu nokubi kwabemi abamsulwa kufuneka kubalelwe ngakumbi kwisicwangciso esibalwe nguHamas sokuveza abantu bayo ekufeni, kodwa ngokuqinisekileyo ayisusi kwingxelo yam yokuqala yokoyikeka kunye nentlungu yakhe nabaphi na abemi abamsulwa, nokuba ngumntwana omnye kwaSirayeli okanye ikhulu labantwana ePalestina okanye eGaza. Kum, zibuhlungu ngokulinganayo. Akukho kungalingani. Babuhlungu ngokulinganayo.
UAMY KUHLE: UNjingalwazi Neve Gordon, wena kunye nosapho lwakho nichithe ixesha elininzi kwindawo yokukhusela ibhombu ngokuchasene neerokethi zeHamas kwiYunivesithi yaseBen-Gurion, kwindawo ejikeleze iYunivesithi yaseBen-Gurion apho uhlala khona. Ubize ukuba uhlaselo luphele ngoku. Ngoba?
NEVE GORDON: Bendiya kuthi uhlaselo lungaqali. Sisandula ukuba ne-rocket apha malunga neyure edlulileyo, kwaye umcimbi-ndivumelana nokunye okutshiwo nguLanny. Okokuqala, ndivumelana nombono welungelo elisisiseko lokuzikhusela. Kwaye ilungelo lokuzikhusela lilungelo lokuzikhusela kubundlobongela. Kufuneka siqonde ukuba umsebenzi ngokwawo bubundlobongela. Sisenzo sobundlobongela. Ukubeka abantu entolongweni, kwintolongo yabantu abasisigidi kunye nesiqingatha sesigidi kwaye bagcinwe apho iminyaka ekupheleni ngaphandle kokutya okusisiseko, ngaphandle kokubavumela ukuba bangene kwaye baphume xa befuna, sisenzo sobundlobongela. Ngaphandle kombane, ngaphandle kwamanzi acocekileyo, konke oko sisenzo sobundlobongela. Kwaye aba bantu bayaxhathisa. Ndichasene nendlela abaxhathisa ngayo, kodwa kufuneka sijonge ubundlobongela babo ngokuchasene nobundlobongela bethu.
Malunga nabantu abaphakathi kweshumi ukuya kwamashumi amabini, abantu bakwa-Israel, basweleke kwiirokethi kule minyaka isibhozo iirokethi zaqaliswa ukusuka eGaza Strip ukuya kwaSirayeli. Ngexesha elifanayo, amaSirayeli angama-4,000 afa kwiingozi zemoto. Ukanti, asiboni msindo ngokuchasene nobunqolobi ezitalatweni zakwaSirayeli. Kodwa kwaba bantu bangamashumi amabini, sivunyelwe ukungena kwi-Gaza Strip kwaye sibaqhubhise ukusuka emoyeni ukuya kwi-cage yabo kwaye babulale abantwana abangama-275. Kwaye uLanny uthi akukho malunga nokungafani, kodwa kunjalo. Ukungalingani ligama elisuka kumthetho wamazwe ngamazwe. Kwaye ngokuthi akavumelani nayo, udelela umthetho wamazwe ngamazwe.
Kwaye u-Israyeli ebedelela umthetho wamazwe ngamazwe kunye nezivumelwano zamazwe ngamazwe kunye nezigqibo zamazwe ngamazwe ukusuka kwi-1967, okanye mhlawumbi ngaphambili. Esinye sezi zigqibo kukuba uSirayeli makayibuyise le mimandla. Kwaye ngokugcina kunye nokubambelela kule mimandla ngeendlela ezinobundlobongela, u-Israyeli udala imeko apho ngokusisiseko zonke iingcango zeGaza Strip zivaliwe ngaphandle komnyango omnye. USheikh Ahmed Yassin, umseki weHamas, uthe. U-Israyeli uvale zonke iingcango kwi-Gaza Strip kwakhona, ngaphandle kweengcango ze-mosque. Siye savala iingcango zesikolo. Siye savala iingcango zoqoqosho. Siye savala iingcango zonyango. Kwaye ke, kwaye ke siyamangaliswa kukuba kufuneka sijongane neHamas.
Ngoko ke ndicinga ukuba kufuneka sitshintshe i-hard drive, kwaye i-hard drive kufuneka ibe kukuba awusombululi izinto ngobundlobongela. Usombulula izinto-usombulula imiba yezozakuzo, imiba yezopolitiko ngothethathethwano kunye neentetho. Kwaye lixesha lokuba uSirayeli ahlale phantsi neHamas kwaye waqalisa ukuthethathethana nabo. I-Hamas ngurhulumente onyuliweyo wabantu basePalestina. Akuyomfuneko ukuba sibathande. Andizithandi. Kodwa bangurhulumente onyuliweyo, kwaye kufuneka sihlale phantsi sithethe nabo singabaqhubhisi.
UAMY KUHLE: Lanny Davis, impendulo yakho?
LANNY DAVIS: Ewe, okokuqala, ndiyabulela-uNjingalwazi uGordon kunye nam mhlawumbi sinentliziyo efanayo, kwaye mhlawumbi sinovelwano olufanayo, kwaye mhlawumbi sineenjongo ezifanayo zesisombululo sezizwe-mbini apho abantu baxoxisana ngoxolo. Kwaye ndiyambulela uNjingalwazi Gordon uhleli kwimeko apho usapho lwakhe lusesichengeni sokufa, kwaye ndihleli ngokukhuselekileyo apha eWashington. Ke andithethi kukugweba, kwaye ndiyayihlonipha kakhulu le nto ithethwa ngunjingalwazi, kodwa ndigxile kwiinyani, kwaye ndiyaxolisa ukuthi mandingavumelani nokugqwesa kukanjingalwazi kwezibakala ezithile, okanye ukushiyeka kusenokubakho. ichanekile.
Masiqale ngomba womthetho wamazwe ngamazwe. Kukwaphula umthetho wezizwe ngezizwe ukudubula imijukujelwa ngabom kwiindawo ezihlala abantu. Inqaku lama-53 leZivumelwano zaseGeneva liyichaza ngokucacileyo loo nto. Ukanti unjingalwazi ulibele ukuyikhankanya loo nto. Ayikokunyhasha umthetho wamazwe ngamazwe ukuzikhusela ukuba awujongi ngabahlali ngabom. I-Hamas ijolise ngabom abemi. Unjingalwazi ulibele ukukhankanya umahluko phakathi kokuzikhusela kunye nokubulawa kabuhlungu kwabantu ngokuzama ukufumana abo baphosa imijukujelwa nxamnye nawe ngenjongo yokubulala abantu.
Kwaye ekugqibeleni kwaye okona kubaluleke kakhulu, ndabelana nomnqweno kanjingalwazi wothetha-thethwano. Yaye njengoko ndanditshilo, ekubeni ndandisengumntwana, ngokwahlukileyo kwiimbono zikabawo ezinamandla, ndandithanda ilizwe lasePalestina, elizimeleyo, yaye ndisenjenjalo nangoku. Kodwa injongo yoluntu exeliweyo yeHamas kukutshatyalaliswa kukaSirayeli. Akukho lizwe liphucukileyo emhlabeni elinokuhlala ngaphaya kwetafile ukusuka kwiqela eliqalisa ubunqolobi-kwaye lichazwa njengobugrogrisi ukubulala ngabom abantu, ngokuchasene nomkhosi. Akukho mntu uyayikhanyela le nto yenziwa nguHamas. Kwaye ukuhlala ngaphaya kwetafile kwintlangano ethi, "Asiyi kukubona. Sifuna ukukutshabalalisa, kwaye siya kusebenzisa ubugrogrisi kubantwana bakho abamsulwa, "akunakwenzeka. Siye sahlala ngapha kwetafile eFatah. Sineziqalo zothethathethwano noMnu. Abboud [sic.]. Kwaye ngokuqinisekileyo sinayo iFatah echasene nobugrogrisi beHamas. Ngapha koko, bagxothwa lubhukuqo lomkhosi yiHamas.
Ke yonke imiba endikholelwa ukuba unjingalwazi kunye nam sifana ngayo, kufuneka sivumelane ubuncinane kwiinyani ezisisiseko, kwaye eyona nto ibaluleke kakhulu endingacingi ukuba unjingalwazi angaphika ukuba injongo yeHamas bubugrogrisi, ukubulala abantu abamsulwa. yaye injongo yawo kukutshatyalaliswa kukaSirayeli, ingekuko ukuqondwa kukaSirayeli, ingengawo amazwe amabini anokuhlalisana ngoxolo.
UAMY KUHLE: UNjingalwazi Neve Gordon?
NEVE GORDON: Ingxaki kukubaโewe, iinjongo zibalulekile, kodwa izibakala zibaluleke ngakumbi. Kwaye inyani yeyokuba uSirayeli nguye owenza umonakaloโumonakalo omkhulu ngakumbi kubemi ngaphezu kokuba iHamas yakha yenza kwaye iya kuze yenze. U-Israyeli ubulele kwiiveki ezimbini ezidlulileyo abantwana be-275, kwaye kungekhona i-Hamas, kungakhathaliseki ukuba iinjongo. Ukhankanye isikolo. USirayeli ujongene nemfazwe yepropaganda. U-Israel nguye owasasaza ividiyo ye-Hamas edubula iirokhethi ezivela esikolweni, ividiyo ephantse ibe neminyaka emibini ubudala, ibanga ukuba ividiyo yathathwa ngosuku okanye ezimbini ngaphambili. Ke uSirayeli usemfazweni yepropaganda. Ewe, i-Hamas ilwa ngaphandle kwabemi, kodwa u-Israyeli unokhetho lokuba uza kuqhubhisa uluntu okanye hayi, kwaye uthatha isigqibo ngabom sokubhobhoza abemi. Ngoko ngokubhekiselele kwiinjongo kwiindawo zokuqhubhisa iibhombu apho kukho abantu, i-Israel yenza njengenqolobane yaseburhulumenteni. Ke, ukuba inkcazo yakho yobugrogrisi ayithatheli ngqalelo yesazisi somdlali-kwaye nabadlali belizwe nabo banokuba ngabanqolobi-ngoko xa uqhubhisa isikolo naxa uqhushumba eyunivesithi kwaye xa uqhushumba ummelwane kwaye ubulala. abantu abaninzi kunabavukeli, ngoko wenza into eyoyikisayo.
Kwaye ndinengxaki. Ndicinga ukuba izimvo zam zixhasa uSirayeli. Ndingathanda ukubona uSirayeli ekho kuMbindi Mpuma iminyaka engamashumi amathandathu ezantsi umgca, hayi kuphela iminyaka engamashumi amathandathu yokuqala. Kwaye ekuphela kwendlela yokuba u-Israyeli aqhubeke ekhona kuMbindi Mpuma ukuba utshintsha indlela yakhe yokujongana nommandla kwaye azibone njengenkokeli yoxolo kwaye ingenguye umdlali onobundlobongela kummandla. Yaye uSirayeli uphila ngekrele. Abanye kubamelwane bethu bebephila ngekrele. Kodwa kufuneka siphume sithi asifuni kuphila ngekrele, kuba abo baphila ngekrele, njengoko iBhayibhile isitsho, nabo bafa ngekrele. Kufuneka siphumele phandle sithi sizimisele ukuthetha neentshaba zethu, nkqu nabantu abathi abakholelwa kubukho bukaSirayeli. I-PLO-ukhankanye iFatah-i-PLO yathi abakholelwa kubukho bukaSirayeli iminyaka emininzi. Kwaye ekugqibeleni, sahlala phantsi sathetha nabo, kwaye ngoku bathathwa njengeqabane lethu lasePalestina. Ndiyakholelwa ukuba ukuba kukho icala lepragmatic, iphiko elinamandla lepragmatic kwiHamas, ukuba siqala ukuthethathethana nabo, kwiminyaka edlulileyo aba bantu baya kuvuma ubukho bukaSirayeli kwaye bazimisele ukuhlala kunye nathi. Ukuba asithethi nabo, ukuba siqhubeka nalo mjikelo wobundlobongela, ekugqibeleni uSirayeli uya kutshatyalaliswa, kuba ekugqibeleni, umda wezobuchwepheshe esinawo phezu kwabamelwane bethu awuyi kuba nentsingiselo. Ngoko ke kufuneka sitshintshe indlela yethu yokwenza izinto. Kufuneka sibe pro-ngokutshintsha indlela yethu yokwenza izinto, ngokwenene sixhasa uSirayeli. Sithi sifuna ukubona uSirayeli kwikhulu leminyaka ukusuka ngoku. Kwaye ekuphela kwendlela yokubona uSirayeli ekho kwiminyaka elikhulu ukususela ngoku kukuba uSirayeli wenza uxolo neSiriya, neLebhanon kunye nabantu basePalestina.
UAMY KUHLE: UNjingalwazi Neve Gordon kunye noLanny Davis, siza kuqhawula, emva koko sibuye. Emva koko, siya kudibaniswa nelungu leCongress uDennis Kucinich, ethetha nathi evela eCleveland, omnye wamalungu amahlanu eCongress ukuba avote ngokuchasene nesigqibo sokuxhasa uSirayeli. Kwaye ke sizakube sithetha nabafazi bamaJuda abamele uhlaselo lwamaSirayeli eGaza, omnye useToronto, omnye apha eNew York. Uqhanqalazo olukhulu lucetywa namhlanje ngaphandle kwe-consulate yase-Israel ngo-5: 00 emva kwemini. ULanny Davis wayesakuba ligqwetha, owayesakuba ngumcebisi okhethekileyo kuMongameli Clinton. Ngoku uligqwetha, kwaye ungumcebisi ophezulu kunye nesithethi seProjekthi yakwaSirayeli. UNeve Gordon useBhershebha kwaSirayeli, usihlalo weSebe lezoPolitiko kunye noRhulumente kwiYunivesithi yaseBen-Gurion yaseNegev. Hlala nathi.
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UAMY KUHLE: Iindwendwe zethu ligqwetha uLanny Davis, umcebisi omkhulu, isithethi seProjekthi yakwaSirayeli eWashington, DC, kunye noNjingalwazi Neve Gordon, usihlalo weSebe lezoPolitiko kunye noRhulumente, iYunivesithi yaseBen-Gurion yaseNegev kwaSirayeli, umbhali we Umsebenzi kaSirayeli. Ndifuna ukuthetha ngesizathu sokuba uSirayeli ahlasele ngeli xesha. Ithini ingqiqo yakho ngale nto? Bathe iHamas yaphula isivumelwano sokuphelisa imfazwe. UNjingalwazi Gordon, ngaba seso sizathu uvakalelwa kukuba oku kwenzekile?
NEVE GORDON: I-Hamas iye yasungula inani elimangalisayo leerokethi ekupheleni kokupheliswa komlilo. U-Israyeli ngokwenene ungumdlali wokuqala owaphula ukupheliswa kokuphela kwe-1 kaNovemba, xa ehlasela eGaza-ngoNovemba 4, xa ehlasela kwiGaza Strip.
Ndicinga ukuba izizathu zangempela kufuneka zenze-ezibini izizathu eziphambili-ngokwakha kwakhona idumela lomkhosi wamaSirayeli emva kokuthotywa kwawo kwi-2006 eLebhanon kunye nonyulo oluzayo lwase-Israel. Bobabini iLabour kunye noKadima, amaqela amabini kumaqela amathathu amakhulu, bebesemva kuvoto ngokuchasene no-BB Netanyahu's Likud, owayebagxeka ngokuthamba kumaPalestina. Kwaye ndicinga ukuba ixesha, malunga nonyulo, olungomhla we-10 kaFebruwari, lalifanelekile ukubonisa ukuba iKadima kunye nezaBasebenzi, ezikwiqela, ziyakwazi ukuba lukhuni kumaPalestina. Kwaye eneneni, sele sele sibona ukuba uMsebenzi wongeze phantse ipesenti ze-50 kwinto eyayinayo ngaphambi kokuba imfazwe iqale. Ke ndicinga ukuba kukho imiba yezopolitiko egxekayo kunye nemiba yodumo edlale indima enkulu ekuqaliseni le mfazwe.
Ndicinga ukuba iHamas nayo yenze-okanye yenza kakubi kwaye yenze impazamo ngokupheleleyo, ukuba ikhuphe imijukujelwa kwaSirayeli. Ndicinga ukuba, ngokweqhinga nangokuziphatha, bekuyimpazamo. Kodwa andiqinisekanga ukuba amaSirayeli kwakufuneka asabele ngemfazwe enjalo. Ndicinga ukuba ngezozakuzo ibinokuyekiswa.
UAMY KUHLE: Lanny Davis, ngaba unenkxalabo malunga ne-blockade kungekhona kuphela kwiPalestina, kodwa nakwingcaciso? I ENew York Times, I-BBC, iReuters, i-CNN yonke ifake isikhalazo kunye nenkulumbuso yase-Israel engavumeli i-press international eGaza. Ucinga ukuba kutheni uSirayeli engavumeli uxinizelelo ukuba lungene?
LANNY DAVIS: Ewe, okokuqala, andifuni ukuwuphendula umbuzo wakho wokugqibela, kuba ndithanda amajelo eendaba ukuba aye eGaza ukuze baxele iinyani kunokuba baxele ubuxoki. Ndingathanda ukubuyela kuloo nto.
Kodwa mandiqale ngokusebenzisa kwakho igama elithi "blockade." Ligama elingachanekanga okanye elinomkhethe elo. Anditsho ukuba ubuyifuna ngolo hlobo, kodwa kunjalo. Kukho i-blockade ye-tunnels kunye nayiphi na enye indlela yokufikelela esetyenziswe yi-Hamas ukuvumela ukungeniswa kwezi rokethi ezivela e-Iran. Lo ngumsebenzi oxhaswa yi-Iranian, kanye njengeHezbollah. Kwaye okwangoku, iilori ezili-165 zoncedo loluntu, ezonyango, zoncedo lokutya ziye eGaza izolo zisuka kwaSirayeli. NgamaJiphutha avale indlela yokungena. Kuya kufuneka ubuze urhulumente waseYiputa, "Kutheni uvala ukufikelela?" Ngenxa yokuba bayazi ukuba le mijelo isetyenziswe yiHamas ukuba ingabuyeli abantu babo ngokutya kunye noncedo lwezonyango, kodwa ngeerokethi ezibekwe phakathi kwabantu, ecaleni kwezikolo, phantsi kwezibhedlele, ukubulala abantu kwaSirayeli. Ke "i-blockade" ngokwenene, ndiyacinga, ligama elifuna ukutshintshwa. Kukuthintelwa okukhethiweyo kwezixhobo zemfazwe zabanqolobi ezibonelelwa ikakhulu yi-Iran, kwaye urhulumente waseYiputa unamandla okuvula loo matonela, kwaye babona ingozi efanayo noSirayeli.
UAMY KUHLE: Ewe, mandibuze lo mbuzo-
LANNY DAVIS: Kumba-
UAMY KUHLE: Umzuzwana nje omnye-kumcimbi wokuvalelwa kuNjingalwazi uNeve Gordon, owandulela uhlaselo lwakwa-Israeli, ukuvalwa ngokupheleleyo kweGaza abantu abaninzi bebecela umngeni kwihlabathi liphela. Ngaba unokucacisa ukuba yintoni na loo nto, uNjingalwazi Gordon?
NEVE GORDON: Ewe, ekubeni i-Hamas yonyulwa kurhulumente kunyulo lwedemokhrasi, u-Israyeli wagqiba ngokusisiseko ukuba ahlasele abantu basePalestina ngokwezoqoqosho, kwaye ngokukodwa i-Hamas kunye ne-Hamas yokuthatha i-Gaza Strip, kwaye ngokusisiseko ilawula yonke imida kwaye ithatha isigqibo sokuba ngubani onokungena kwaye ngubani onokungena. shiya kwaye yintoni enokungena kwaye yintoni enokuhamba. Kwaye eneneni ivumela isixa esithile soncedo loluntu, kwaye ivumela olu ncedo loluntu, ngokwamabango akwaSirayeli, ukuze kungabikho ntlekele yoluntu. Ngoko, ngokusisiseko, u-Israyeli uthi, "Siza kuvumela iilori ze-165 ukuze kungabikho ntlekele yoluntu, ngoko sinokuqhubeka nemfazwe ngokumelene neHamas." Ke luhlobo lwemigaqo emitsha yemfazwe, inqobo yemfazwe osilwa nayo hayi omnye umkhosi, kodwa amajoni akwiphiko elixhobileyo lombutho ophakathi kwabemi, kwaye ke ngoku uhlasela abemi, kwaye nithi, "Asifuni ukuba kwenzeke intlekele, ukuze siqhubeke sikuhlasela." Kukho into ehlekisayo ngayo kwaye kukho into eyoyikisayo ngayo.
Kwaye ke, eneneni, kuye kwakho uthintelo eGaza, kwaye ibe luthintelo olunzima kakhulu eGaza. Kwaye no-Israyeli ubanga ukuba kukho uthintelo eGaza kwaye esithi u-Israyeli uvumela uncedo loluntu ukuba lungene ukuze luqhubeke nokuqhubhisa ibhombu kakhulu, luyahlekisa kakhulu.
LANNY DAVIS: Masivumelane ngenyaniso esisiseko apha. UNksz Goodman, usebenzise ibinzana elithi "i-blockade epheleleyo" okwesibini emva kokuba ndithe ukusetyenziswa kokuqala kwentetho yakho "i-blockade" yayingachanekanga okanye ingalingani. Ke ndingathanda ukucebisa ukuba ubuncinci uthi "indawo evaliweyo," kuba ayijoliswanga kuyo nayiphi na enye into ngaphandle kokuthintela iimbumbulu kunye neerokhethi ezingena zivela eIran. Yinyani leyo. Ubuze urhulumente waseYiputa ukuba bayavuma na. Okwesibini-
NEVE GORDON: Ukuba umPalestine ufuna ukungenisa imoto ngaphandleโ
LANNY DAVIS: Unjingalwazi, unjingalwazi, mandiyekeโndivumele nje ndenze enye ingongoma.
NEVE GORDON: โimoto, akakwazi ukungenisa imoto. Ukuba umPalestine ufuna ukungenisa inkomo kwamanye amazwe, akakwazi ukungenisa inkomo.
LANNY DAVIS: Ngokweneneโbendifuna ukuniphazamisa kakubi, kodwa ndiyabulela ukuba kuninzi enifuna ukukuthetha, yaye ndingathanda ukuba nindivumele ndigqibezele.
Ndimangaliswe kakhulu kukuba ungaqalisi ngento esivumelana ngayo: ekuphela kwento enokwenziwa yiHamas kukuyeka ukuthumela imijukujelwa yabanqolobi ezijoliswe kubemiโawuzange ungavumelani nam ngaloo nto; siyavumelana ngaloo ntoโkwaye senza uxolo noSirayeli. Yiloo nto kuphela abafanele bayenze, ngendlela efanayo naleyo uMnu.sic.] kunye neFatah yenze kwi-West Bank, ekhulayo.
Kwaye okwesibini, okona kubaluleke kakhulu, umsebenzi uphelile. Ngo-2005, u-Israel wayikhupha yonke imikhosi yakhe. Ujongene nombuso okanye urhulumente wobugrogrisi okanye urhulumente othi, "Ndizama ukukutshabalalisa, kwaye ndiza kuthumela iirokethi ukuba zibulale abantu bakho," seso sizathu sokuba ukungabikho kwezoqoqosho, njengoko ubiza njalo, ziya kwenzeka kulo naliphi na ilizwe eliphucukileyo ehlabathini. Ukuba iKhanada okanye iMexico yayinenjongo yokutshabalalisa eUnited States kwaye yaqalisa iirokethi ngokuchasene neHouston okanye ngokuchasene neBoston-ukuba ucinga ukuba iUnited States okanye naliphi na elinye ilizwe emhlabeni liya kuvumela oko ukuba kwenzeke ngaphandle kokunciphisa uqoqosho ngelixa uvumela uncedo loluntu, ke ndiyakucela ke ukuba makhe ndiphikisane nawe.
Kumajelo eendaba, uNks. Goodman, ndiโ
UAMY KUHLE: Lanny Davis, siqale nawe-ndiya nje-kuya kufuneka sisonge kuba sibhekisa kuDennis Kucinich.
LANNY DAVIS: KULUNGILE. Ewe, ukuphawula nje ngokukhawuleza kumajelo eendaba, endingazange ndiphendule. Ndicinga ukuba kufanele ukuba kubekho ukuvezwa okungakumbi, kwaye kufuneka kubekho ukuvuleleka ngakumbi kumajelo eendaba. Ndicinga ukuba uSirayeli uhamba kwelo cala. Ngokuqinisekileyo ndicinga ukuba i-propaganda, umzekelo, ingxelo yobuxoki yokuba itanki yase-Israel yadubula kwi-convoy ye-UN, yathatha iiyure ezingamashumi amane anesibhozo kwisithethi seZizwe eziManyeneyo esibeka eso sitatimende ukuba sithi, "Ewe, andiqinisekanga. ." Elo yaba lithuba leeyure ezingamashumi amane anesibhozo. Wonke umntu usakholelwa ukuba kwenzekile, kuba ukuhoxiswa kwengxelo okanye ukuguqulwa kwengxelo akuzange kufumaneke kwi-headlines yephepha eliphambili le ngxelo.
Ke kufuneka silumke kakhulu ukuba xa sifika eendaba zethu eGaza, sifumane abantu abanenjongo yokuxela iinyani malunga nokuba ziphi le mijukujelwa. Ngaba baphantsi kwezikolo? Ngaba basezibhedlele? Yaye ukuba kunjalo, ngaba eso sisenzo esilulwaphulo-mthetho nolwaphulo-mthetho lwemfazwe ngokwaso? Yiyo loo nto ndifuna abeendaba eGaza, baqinisekise ubugwenxa bemfazwe obenziwa yiHamas kulapho babeka khona iirokethi zabo.
UAMY KUHLE: Lanny Davis, saqala ngawe; siza kuphetha ngoNjingalwazi Neve Gordon eBhershebha.
NEVE GORDON: Ndinezimvo ezimbini ekufuneka ndenze, enye inxulumene noqhanqalazo kumajelo eendaba. Ngama-700 amaSirayeli ababanjiwe okoko yaqalayo le mfazwe, kuba ayeqhankqalaza le mfazwe. Oku akukhange kufikelele kumajelo eendaba ehlabathi, kwaye sisenzo sokoyikisa urhulumente ngokuchasene nabo baqhankqalaza imfazwe.
Okwesibini, ngokuphathelele oko kwathethwa nguLanny, ukuba akukho lizwe liya kuvumela elinye ilizwe ukuba liqhumisele ngebhombu abemi balo, unyanisile. Ulibala inyani enye ebalulekileyo, kwaye ngumsebenzi lowo. Kwaye iGaza yayingekho-isaphantsi kolawulo, kuba i-Israel ilawula yonke imida yayo, kwaye iWest Bank iphantsi kolawulo, kwaye i-East Jerusalem iphantsi kolawulo. Kwaye isenzo-esokuqala, esokuqala, isenzo esiphambili sobundlobongela ngumsebenzi. Iirokethi zisabela kweso senzo sobundlobongela. Kwaye ke, kufuneka sikhumbule ukuba ngaphakathi-akukho phakathi kwelizwe kunye nelinye ilizwe. Ibiphakathi komhlali nomntu ohleliyo.
UAMY KUHLE: Siza kuyishiya apho. UNjingalwazi Neve Gordon eBeersheba, usihlalo weSebe lezoPolitiko kunye noRhulumente, iYunivesithi yaseBen-Gurion yaseNegev. Ungumbhali we Umsebenzi kaSirayeli. ULanny Davis, umcebisi omkhulu kunye nesithethi seProjekthi yakwaSirayeli, igqwetha kunye nowayesakuba ngumcebisi okhethekileyo kuMongameli uClinton. Enkosi nobabini ngokuba nathi.
LANNY DAVIS: Enkosi kakhulu.
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