SHARMINI PERIES: Yeyona Network yeNdaba. NdinguSharmini Peries, ndiza kuwe ndivela eBaltimore.
IFransi ijonge kuvoto nge-23 ka-Epreli, ukukhetha umongameli. Okwangoku, aba babini bangaphambili basondele kuvoto, omnye ngumgqatswa osekunene, uMarine Le Pen, kwaye omnye nguMphathiswa wezoQoqosho waseFransi, u-Emmanuel Macron, othathwa njenge-neo-liberal centrist.
Eyona nto yahluke ngokupheleleyo kolu lonyulo kukuba akukho namnye kwabagqatswa abaphambili abaphuma kumaqela ezopolitiko aphambili elizwe, kumbutho wobusoshiyali, okanye kumbutho wolondolozo. La maqela akwisiphithiphithi esimandla ngelo xesha.
Endaweni yoko, sinentloko encinci kuvoto njengomgqatswa osekunene kakhulu, uMarine Le Pen, obaleka kwiqonga elichasene neYurophu, elichasene nabaphambukeli, okwesibini, u-Emmanuel Macron, oneminyaka engama-39 ubudala, obaleka njenge. umntu ophambili kwiqela elibizwa, En Marche! Wayengazange abambe isikhundla kwixesha elidlulileyo, ubuncinane engazange anyulwe.
Ukusijoyina ngoku ukuba sixoxe ngoku kutsha kunyulo lwaseFransi nguRenaud Lambert. URenaud ngumhleli wephephandaba lenyanga, iLe Monde diplomatique.
Enkosi ngokuzimanya nathi namhlanje, Renaud.
URENAUD LAMBERT: Enkosi ngokuba nam.
SHARMINI PERIES: Ke, Renaud, kushiyeke malunga neeveki ezine ukuba kukhokele kunyulo lwaseFransi. Okokuqala sixelele ukuba yintoni inkqubo, kuba olu lunyulo olubuyela emva, kwaye kuya kubakho enye iseti yonyulo, ngoko ndikuqondayo. Okwesibini, ithini imeko ngokwamaqela amakhulu, kunye nesizathu sokuba ingabi naye umgqatswa ophambili kuvoto ngoku?
URENAUD LAMBERT: Kunjalo. Ke ewe, eFrance sinemitsi emibini nonyulo, ke ngalo lonke ixesha sisiya kuvoto kugqatso lokuqala, siyakukhetha abagqatswa ababini. Okwangoku, kubonakala ngathi i-Marine Le Pen iya kuba ngomnye wabo, kwaye umbuzo omkhulu, ngubani oza kuba ngowesibini, kwaye emva koko singene kumjikelo wesibini ukuze sithathe isigqibo sokuba ngubani oza kuba ngumongameli.
Mandigxininise ukuba bangaphezulu kwesihlanu abagqatswa, nangona amajelo eendaba kunye novoto, kubonakala ngathi bagqibe kwelokuba bahlanu kuphela abafanele ukuba kuthethwe ngabo. Kwimithombo yeendaba, isizathu kukuba, abaviwa abancinci abavoti kakuhle, kodwa kunjalo, unesangqa esikhohlakeleyo apho ukuvota kubi, ngoko ke amajelo eendaba akathethi ngabagqatswa abancinci, kwaye ukuvota kuya kuba nzima. .
Ngoko ke, abahlanu kubo baye bakhethwa kwangaphambili ngamajelo eendaba, kwaye njengoko utshoyo, abo babini basuka kwisiqhelo, amaqela amakhulu ngokwesiko eFransi, abaleka ngasemva. Kwaye umbuzo ngowokuba kutheni. Ewe, ndicinga ukuba kungenxa yokuba eFransi singqina kanye oko sikubonileyo kwamanye amazwe afana ne-UK, njengeMelika, iMelika. Apho amaqela aphambili aphambili ngokwesiko akhokela iindidi ezifanayo zemigaqo-nkqubo, imigaqo-nkqubo ye-nio-liberal, kancinane ukuya ngasekunene, kancinane ukuya ekhohlo, apho, abantu bakruqukile yiyo.
Abantu bafuna ukuyitshintsha le nto, kwaye endaweni yoko, into oyibonayo kukunyuka kohlobo lwephiko lasekunene, iMarine Le Pen eFransi, iTrump eMelika, kwaye kunjalo, i-UKIP e-UK, kunye nokuzama ukudlula. idemokhrasi yemveli yezentlalo, amaqela enkululeko yezentlalo ngasekhohlo.
SHARMINI PERIES: Kunjalo. Ngoko ke, sinike ingqiqo ye-Marine Le Pen, indlela ethandwa ngayo, kwaye wenza njani kwiingxoxo, kwaye ikhangeleka njengolunye uhlobo lukaDonald Trump lwephulo lonyulo, apho ilungelo elikude liphakama kwaye lithatha amandla?
URENAUD LAMBERT: Ewe, andizukuzama ukukunika inkcazo malunga nokuba kuza kwenzeka ntoni. Imeko imaxongo kakhulu. Sibona ukushukuma ngequbuliso, ukuwa ngequbuliso, nantoni na enokwenzeka. Nantoni na evela kwi-scandals, ukuya kuhlaselo lwamaphekula eFransi, ngoko, uyazi, asazi ukuba kuya kwenzeka ntoni. U-Marine Le Pen uqhuba kakuhle kakhulu.
Uvuna ingenelo yokunqongophala kwentando kuyo yonke imbonakalo yezopolitiko, ukungabikho kokuqwalaselwa kweengxaki eziye zabangelwa kukudityaniswa kwehlabathi eFransi, i-European Union, kubantu abaqhelekileyo. Ke, yena, njengoko ubutshilo, uhamba eqongeni lokuchasa abafuduki, kunye ne-EU, kodwa uzenza ngathi, uzenza umgqatswa wabantu. Uthi, uyazi, ukuba ubomi babo buza kuphucuka kunye naye. Kwaye ndiyacinga, njengokuba sifika kumhla wovoto, kufuneka athethe kancinci malunga nento aza kuyenza.
Namhlanje okanye izolo, andikhumbuli, wathetha phambi kombutho ophambili wecandelo labucala, kwaye kwiintsuku ezimbalwa ezidlulileyo kwakukho inqaku kwiLe Monde, iphephandaba elikhulu laseFransi, malunga nendlela abatyali-mali, abatyali-mali bangaphandle, babesoyika ngayo. IFransi ishiya i-EU. Kwaye into esiyibonayo xa iFront, ijongene necandelo labucala, kunye nezezimali, kukuba bathatha isimo esahlukileyo.
Umzekelo, kwicandelo labucala ucacisa ukuba ufuna iiyure ezinde zokusebenza. Abantu baseFransi abayifuni loo nto. Wayefuna ukurhoxiswa okungaphezulu kwemithetho yokusebenza. Abantu baseFransi abayifuni loo nto. Kwaye malunga ne-EU, wonyula owayesakuba yibhanki ukuba amenzele idosi yaseYurophu, kwaye le ndoda ichaza ukuba yindoda yentengiso, kwaye ndiyacaphula. Wayeyibhanki yeNatixis, isibini sezinye iibhanki, kwaye inqaku eliphuma kutshanje, lichaza ukuba xa bethetha naye, abatyali-mali babonakala beqinisekisiwe.
Ke, into eza phezulu, yinto yokuba iqonga le-Front National alinakwenzeka. Abanako ngaxeshanye ukwenza ubomi bube lula kwicandelo labucala, kwaye bazalisekise isithembiso sokwenza ubomi bubengcono kubantu abasebenzayo. Ke, oku kuza phambili. Ndicinga ukuba ayizukuba ziindaba ngokwaneleyo ukuba abantu bamfulathele kwaye bakhethe enye indlela.
I-SHARMINI PERIES: Kwaye abantu basabela njani kwiimvakalelo ezichasene ne-EU? Ngaba kufana neBritani, ngengqiqo yokuba abantu banqwenela ukushiya i-EU ngenxa yemeko yeembacu?
URENAUD LAMBERT: Imeko yeembacu ngokuqinisekileyo igalele ityuwa enxebeni, kodwa inxeba lalikhona ngaphambili. Ndicinga ukuba le nto uyibonayo eFransi, kwakhona, iyafana nale uyingqinayo kwamanye amazwe, ngaba unabaphumeleleyo kunye nabaphulukeneyo kwinkqubo yokudityaniswa kwehlabathi. Abaphumeleleyo bahlala kwizixeko ezikhulu, banemisebenzi yobukrelekrele, imisebenzi yenkonzo, imisebenzi ehlawulwa kakhulu. Bancinci, bathetha iilwimi ezahlukeneyo, bahamba, kwaye kubo i-EU inkulu, kuba banokuya kwelinye ilizwe. Akunyanzelekanga ukuba batshintshe iimali, konke kugqibelele kwaye banokunikela ixesha kwiinjongo ezinjengomanyano kwaye, uyazi, ukuba nobubele kummelwane wakho.
Kwaye ke unabo abaphulukene nale nkqubo yokudityaniswa kwehlabathi, abantu abaye bazibandakanya kukhuphiswano olunzima ngokuchasene nabanye abasebenzi. Yile nto i-EU iyenzele abantu abaninzi - abantu abasebenzayo - uyazi? Ukubeka kwimeko apho kufuneka bakhuphisane nabasebenzi basePoland, nakwezinye iindawo, kwaye kwaba bantu ngelixa i-EU ingasebenzi, uyazi, abanayo imali yokuhamba kakhulu.
Abakhathali malunga nokutshintsha imali xa bewela umda ngenxa yokuba abakwenzi rhoqo, akunjalo? Kwaye badla ngokuhlala kude nezixeko ezikhulu, kuba abanayo imali yokonwabela ubomi basezidolophini ezinkulu, kwaye ke ubeโฆ ke, aba bantu baphulukene nale nkqubo yokudityaniswa kwehlabathi, into ephunyezwe leli ziko ligqithisileyo.
SHARMINI PERIES: Kunjalo. Kwaye usixelele ngoEmmanuel Macron. Ukwangumgcini-bhanki, ndiyaqonda, ngokwexesha lakhe elidlulileyo. Wayesakuba nguMphathiswa wezoQoqosho. Ndaye ndathi centrist, kodwa kuthetha ukuthini konke oko?
URENAUD LAMBERT: Ewe, ndiyaqikelela ukuba ubuthetha ukuthini, kukuba le ndoda izibonakalisa ingeyiyo, ekunene okanye ekhohlo, ehlala iseFransi, njengakwenye indawo, ithetha ukuba ungasekunene kwezopolitiko. Kwaye okunomdlaโฆ U-Emmanuel Macron, kukuba uyabonisa, ubonisa, njengomgqatswa ochasene nenkqubo. Kwaye eneneni, xa ujonga imvelaphi yakhe, owayesakuba ngumgcini webhanki, owayesakuba ngumphathiswa wezemali kumongameli wangoku, le ndoda iquka inkqubo. Uyinkqubo. Uyazi?
Nangona, nokuba uthetha ngenkqubo yezopolitiko, inkqubo yezemali ... Kodwa, sifumana uncedo oluninzi lweendaba, inkxaso eninzi yemithombo yeendaba kuvoto lwethu kangangokuba uye wakwazi ukubeka phambili lo mfanekiso womntu owahlukileyo. Unohlobo olutsha lwesimo sengqondo. Umncinci kwaye ukhangeleka ngendlela eyahlukileyo, uyazi?
Kodwa eyona nto kukuba, uMacron uza kuba yenye yezinto aza kuvusa iqela lentlalontle kakhulu. Awona manani makhulu avela kwiqela lobusoshiyali ngoku axhasa uMacron, nangona baququzelele iiprimaries. Oko kwakuthetha ukuba bekumele ukuba bazise inkxaso yabo kumgqatswa okhethiweyo, kunye nowayesakuba yiNkulumbuso uManuel Valls, ngoku uxhasa uMacron, kwaye unazo zonke ezi qela lentlalontle ephezulu, ngoku esemva kweMacron.
Enye yezinto ezilungileyo ezinokuthi zenzeke emva kolu lonyulo, kukuqhawuka kombutho wobusoshiyali kunye neqela lasekunene elijikeleze iMacron, iValls kunye neHamon, kwaye babayeke bakhukuliseke baye ngasekunene, kunye nokuba nokwenzeka kokwaphulwa kweqela lasekhohlo. ngaphandle kwaye ngubani owaziyo, ukudibanisa imikhosi kunye noMรฉlenchon, okanye ukulungelelanisa into eyahlukileyo. Oku kunokuba - kwaye ndithi inokuba - isiphumo esihle sonyulo oluzayo.
SHARMINI PERIES: Kulungile. Kodwa i-socialists iqhuba umgqatswa, uBenoit Hamon kunye nomgqatswa omele iqela likaHamon. Ke, uqhuba njani kwinkqubo yonyulo okwangoku?
URENAUD LAMBERT: Ewe, akunjalo. Iivoti zakhe ziyehla. Kwaye, njengoko nisitsho, ungumgqatswa weSocialist Party, kodwa ingxaki enkulu kuye kukuba akafumani nkxaso kwizikhulu zalo mbutho, nto leyo ebonisa ukuba xa ebephethe, bekuza kufuneka azame. Amanyanisa iqela lezopolitiko elohlukileyo kwaye ngokuqinisekileyo oku kuya kumtsalela ekunene.
Ke, abantu babona ukuba uHamon akakholisi kangako umviwa. Okwangoku, ii-poll zakhe ziyehla kwaye oku kukukhuthaza kwi-Mรฉlenchon, kodwa uMรฉlenchon usengowesine kwi-poll.
I-SHARMINI PERIES: UMรฉlenchon ngumviwa osekhohlo, uJean-Paul Mรฉlenchon. Sixelele ngendlela aqhuba ngayo kunyulo kwaye ngaba kukho ukujikela ekhohlo apha?
URENAUD LAMBERT: Ewe, kwakukho ingxoxo enkulu phakathi kwabahlanu babaviwa, kwaye uMรฉlenchon waqhuba kakuhle kakhulu. Wayehlekisa, okokuqala, kwaye wonke umntu uthanda ukuhleka kancinci ngexesha lengxoxo yonyulo. Bathanda ukukruqula kwaye babe buthuntu eFransi.
I-SHARMINI PERIES: Ndiyaqonda ukuba ziiyure ezintathu ezinesiqingatha, ingxoxo yokugqibela.
URENAUD LAMBERT: Kwakunjalo. Yayiyiyo, kodwa, ndiyathetha, ungayibukela. Uyazi, ibinomdla kakhulu. Kwaye uMรฉlenchon ulunge kakhulu. Wayebukhali kakhulu, kwaye uneprojekthi. Nguye kuphela umgqatswa oweza namanani. Ngoku, uneeyure kunye neeyure zokubonisa la manani kwi-intanethi, kwaye xa ndisithi iiyure kunye neeyure, ndiyazi ukuba kuvakala kubuthuntu, kwaye kuyadika kakhulu, kodwa, hayi, benze umsebenzi omangalisayo ekuboniseni kanye indlela abawenza ngayo. babeza kwenza ishishini labo. Kwaye uzama ukuqondisa iYurophu kwelinye icala, kule Yurophu ... kwaye ukuba iBrussels ayifuni ngoko, uyazi, ...
Ke, kukho iphulo lokukhaba kwiphulo leMรฉlenchon, kodwa uyazi, ubaleka okwesine. Baninzi abantu abangafuni ukumvotela kuba basabambelele kumbutho wobusoshiyali, kwaye okwangoku ndifumanisa kunzima ukukholelwa ukuba angangena kumjikelo wesibini.
SHARMINI PERIES: Kunjalo. Kukho imihla emibini ebalulekileyo, i-16 ka-Epreli, yonyulo olubuyelayo kwaye emva koko lolonyulo lukamongameli, ndiyaqonda luya kubanjwa nge-7 kaMeyi. Yintoni olindele ukuba kwenzeke kwi-runoff, kwaye ndiyazi ukuba ndikucela ukuba uqikelele, kodwa ngokusekelwe kwinto esiyaziyo ukuza kuthi ga ngoku, kwaye uthe imeko ayiqikelelekanga, ingalindelekanga, kodwa ngokusekelwe kwinto esiyaziyo ukuza kuthi ga ngoku, yintoni ucinga ukuba kuyakwenzeka nge-7 ka-Epreli?
URENAUD LAMBERT: Ukusuka kwinto esiyaziyo ukuza kuthi ga ngoku, imeko yiLe Pen kuqala, iMacron yesibini, emva koko ube nokubaleka phakathi kwezi zimbini. Kodwa yintoni enokwenzeka okwangoku? UFillon ubandakanyeke kumahlazo amakhulu. Ndithetha ukuthi, kuyahlekisa kweli nqanaba. Akazange nje lo mfo uqhathe imali yokuhlawula umfazi wakhe, ukunika imali kubantwana bakhe, kodwa kamva safumanisa ukuba, abantu baseFransi bafumanisa, ukuba imali wayeyinike abantwana bakhe wacela ukubuyisela imali. Ndiyathetha, akafani noCorleone, uyazi - ujonge usapho lwakhe - kwaye le ndoda yamkelwa ngamaqanda ephoswe kuye, ngexesha lomkhankaso wakhe. Yintlekele epheleleyo. Ubambelele.
Kodwa ngubani owaziyo? Yonke imihla inika okwaneleyo ukweyisela nawuphi na umpolitiki ohloniphekileyo ukuba, uyazi, anikezele. Ukuba ebenokuncama, andithi uyayenza, kodwa ukuba ebenokuncama, le nto ingatshintsha izinto ezininzi, uyayazi, ngoba indawo yesithathu ibinokwenzeka, kwaye ngubani owaziyo ukuba kuqhubeka ntoni. ukuba kwenzeke kuMacron. Ungumgqatswa oethe-ethe. Uyazi, ukusa kumlinganiselo othile uliqamza leendaba. Usabela kumnqweno bekungayi kubakho abantu abaninzi abathetha ngayo, abathetha ngaye. Kodwa uncedwa ngamajelo eendaba, ukuba ezi ntlobo zamaqamza, ngamanye amaxesha ziyaqhuma, kwaye ke nantoni na eyenzekayo. Kodwa ngeli nqanaba ngelishwa ...
USHARMINI PERIES: Sixelele kancinci malunga neqela lakhe, En Marche! Ingaba yin?
URENAUD LAMBERT: โฆ โMarshรฉโ
I-SHARMINI PERIES: Imele ntoni, kwaye ngaba kukho umfutho ngasemva kwakhe?
URENAUD LAMBERT: Njengoko nditshoyo, kukho amandla amakhulu eendaba. Kwaye umzekelo, xa iqela lobusoshiyali libambe iiprimaries zalo, uMacron akazange athathe inxaxheba, kodwa ngosuku olulandelayo, iphepha eliphambili lamaphephandaba amaninzi lalithetha malunga nokuba isiphumo sasilungile okanye sibi kuMacron. Uyazi, iprism ihlala iMacron, iMacron.
Ngoku, uye walungiselela iintlanganiso ezimbalwa apho kwakukho abantu abaninzi, uyazi, kwaye ngokucacileyo abanye abantu bayatsaleleka kuye. Abantu abafuna ukuba inkqubo iqhubeke, uMacron ngumgqatswa oqhubekayo, neo-liberal. Ufuna ukuqhubela phambili ukulahla imimiselo yokusebenza eFransi. Ufuna ukuqinisa umanyano lwe-EU. Nabani na ophumeleleyo ukuba izinto ziqhubeke, kwaye ngokusisiseko siginye ingxaki esikuyo, okwangoku kwaye sinethemba lokuba izinto zizolunga, uMacron uzakuba ngumgqatswa wabo okwangoku, kwaye aba bantu bakhona eFrance.
SHARMINI PERIES: Kulungile, Renaud, ndiyabulela kakhulu ngokuzimanya nathi namhlanje, kwaye sizakuhlala siyijongile, kwaye siya kujonge phambili ekubuyeni kwakho.
URENAUD LAMBERT: Enkosi ngokuba nam.
SHARMINI PERIES: Kwaye enkosi ngokusidibanisa apha kwiNethiwekhi yeNdaba yokwenyani.
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Ngokucacileyo, umgaqo-nkqubo wamazwe angaphandleโiNATO, iRashiya, uMbindi-Mpuma, iTshayinaโubonakala ungabalulekanga kubavoti baseFransi. Ngaba bazikhathaza ngemfazwe?