(1 / 28 / 2011) AMY GOODMAN: Ini ndiri Amy Goodman. Ndiri muPark City, Utah, ndakabatana naSharif Abdel Kouddous, ari kutambira kubva kuNew York nenhau dzichangoburwa kubva mukuratidzira kukuru kuri kuitika kuEgypt.
SHARIF ABDEL KOUDDOUS: Ndatenda, Amy.
Kuratidzira kwapararira muEgypt nhasi muzuva guru rekuratidzira kurwisa hurumende kusvika pari zvino. Mukuratidzira kusati kwamboitika kwekuratidzira kwakakurumbira, mazana ezviuru zvevaratidziri ari kuungana muCairo, Alexandria, Suez, Mansoura, Sharqiya uye kumwewo.
Kunetsana kwakanyanya kuri kuitika nemauto ehurumende. Mapurisa ari kuridza hutsi hunokachidza mumhomho yevanhu uye atanga kuunganidza vanhu mumigwagwa. Vatori venhau vane chitsama vanonzi vakasungwawo kusanganisira vamwe vakarohwa zvakaipisisa.
Pane mashoko anotiwo Mohamed ElBaradei, muwani wemubairo weNobel Peace, uye aimbova mukuru wesangano reUnited Nations nuclear watchdog, asungwa muCairo.
Kuratidzira uku kunouya pakati pekudzivirirwa kukuru muEgypt. Pakutanga, hurumende yakavhara internet, nharembozha uye masevhisi eSMS. Mutori wenhau weAl Jazeera muCairo akati hurumende yakatsvaira nyika pamepu yepasi rose. The Associated Press inoshuma kuti mauto akasarudzika akaiswa kunzvimbo dzakakosha dzakatenderedza Cairo, uye gurukota rezvemukati meEgypt rakayambira nezve "matanho akasimba." Arabic wire news services vakashumawo kuti 1,000 activists vakasungwa nezuro manheru, uye 149 vakapomerwa mhosva yekuedza kupidigura hurumende. Vakuru veEgypt vakasungawo nhengo makumi maviri dzeMuslim Brotherhood, kusanganisira mbiri dzenhengo dzayo dzepamusoro.
Kwemazuva matatu apfuura, maguta muEgypt aona kuratidzira kusati kwamboitwa vanhu vachipikisa hutongi hwemakore makumi matatu hwemutungamiri wenyika VaHosni Mubarak. Vanhu vanosvika vanomwe vafa uye vanosvika chiuru nemazana maviri vasungwa kubva zvatanga kuratidzira uku. Human Rights Watch yakati mapurisa eEgypt akawedzera kushandiswa kwechisimba vachipokana nekuratidzira kune runyararo, vachizvidaidza kuti, "hazvigamuchirwe zvachose uye zvisingaenzaniswi."
Isu tinoenda iko zvino kuCairo, kwatakabatanidzwa pamutsetse naAhmad Shokr. Iye mupepeti webepanhau reEgypt Al-Masry Al-Youm. Zvakaoma zvikuru kusvika kuCairo izvozvi. Ari kubatana nesu kubva kuhotera iri mudhorobha reCairo pedyo neTahrir Square.
Ahmad Shokr, ndinokutendai nekubatana nesu. Unogona here kutsanangura zviri kuitika iye zvino muCairo?
AHMAD SHOKR: Ndatenda. Ndafara kuva pano.
Zvakanaka, zviitiko izvozvi zvinoshamisa. Chaizvoizvo, makumi ezviuru ari kuenda kumigwagwa mukati mekuchengetedzwa kukuru. Ndakamira pamberi pekuratidzira kwevanenge zviuru zvishoma zvevanhu vakatora rimwe remabhiriji makuru muCairo, vachidana kudzingwa kwehurumende yaHosni Mubarak. Vasimudza maoko avo, vachitaura kuti varatidziri vane runyararo, asi vasangana nekunaya kwemabara erabha neutsi hunokachidza.
Izvi ndizvo zviri kuitika munzvimbo dzakawanda dzeguta guru nhasi, uye izvi zviri kuitika mumaguta akawanda eEgipita, sezvatinotaura. Panga paine kuratidzira kukuru kwange kwarongwa kuitwa mushure meminamato yeChishanu masikati nhasi. Uye misikiti mikuru muCairo yakavharwa nehurumende. Tahrir Square, iyo yaive nzvimbo yekuratidzira kukuru neChipiri kwevanhu vangangosvika zviuru gumi nezvishanu, yakavharwa zvachose nemauto.
MaEgypt akamuka nhasi kuti aone kuti internet yavo uye nharembozha neSMS masevhisi akavharwa, zvakare. Uye saka, Egypt yakanyatso kubviswa kubva munyika yedhijitari izvozvi, mukuyedza nehurumende kudzivirira kutaurirana nezvekuratidzira. Vodafone, imwe yemakambani matatu emafoni eEgypt, anonzi akasimbisa kuti izvi zvakaitwa pasi pemirairo yevakuru veEgypt.
Uye saka, varatidziri vari, sezvandataura, iko zvino munyika yose mumigwagwa. Vari kuparadzirwa nechisimba ne gasi remisodzi, uye vakatarisana nezviuru zvemapurisa eCentral Security. Pane mashoko ekuti vatori venhau vakarwiswa. Al Jazeera yakataura kurwiswa kwemumwe wevatori venhau vayo. Mutori wenhau weBBC zviri pachena kuti akuvara.
Advocate Advocate Mohamed ElBaradei, aimbove mukuru weInternational Atomic Energy Agency, anonzi anga akakomberedzwa pane imwe mosque, kwaaida kunamata ozotungamira kufora mushure. Paiva nemishumo kare kuti akasungwa, asi semanzwisisiro andinoita iye zvino, achangobva kukombwa nekuchengeteka uye akadziviswa kubva-chokwadi, Baradei ave achikurudzira vanhu kuti vaende mumigwagwa. Ini hurukuro na The Guardiannezuro, akataura kuti hurumende iri pamakumbo ayo ekupedzisira-zvakare, zvikuru, mazwi akasimba zvikuru kubva kumutsigiri wekuvandudza, akasimba kudarika atakanzwa kubva kwaari mumwedzi mishoma yapfuura.
Saka, nyika iri mubishi rekusagadzikana pakati pekudzikira kukuru kwekuchengetedza. Uye izvi zvakakosha zvikuru nekuti iyi ndiyo misangano mikuru yakaitika kuEgypt mukati mehutongi hwaMubarak hwemakore makumi matatu. Iri zvirokwazvo ndiro rakakura, dambudziko guru rezvematongerwo enyika iro hurumende isati yaona kubva mumigwagwa.
AMY GOODMAN: Ahmad Shokr, ndaida kukubvunza nezve mishumo iyo CNN-zvakanaka, achiteerera Ben Wedeman, akati kamera yake yakatorwa, yakatsemuka nemauto eEgypt, zvakare pamwe kuti vanhu makumi maviri vakaurayiwa muSuez. Ndeapi mishumo yaunayo, uye chii chakarehwa naSuez mukuratidzira uku kukuru muEgypt?
AHMAD SHOKR: Pave nekurwisana kunotyisa kuri kuitika muSuez, zvichida kudarika mamwe maguta munyika kwemazuva maviri apfuura. Mishumo yekupedzisira yandakanzwa yaive yekuti, ndinotenda, vanhu vashanu kana vatanhatu vakaurayiwa, kunyangwe zvanga zvakaoma kuwana ruzivo nhasi nekuda kwekudzvanywa kwenharembozha neinternet. Saka handizive kuti chii chiri kubuda muna Suez, asi pave nekunetsana kukuru kuri kuitika muSuez kwemazuva maviri apfuura.
Uye sezvandakataura, mhinduro yechengetedzo yakanyatsoita zvechisimba. Ini ndinofunga neChipiri, pakatanga kuratidzira, pakanga paine maawa mashoma ekureruka pakutanga, pamwe kuona kuti kuratidzira uku kwaizove kwakakura sei uye kana huwandu hukuru hwerutsigiro hwavakagamuchira paFacebook hwaizoshandura kuita miviri pa migwagwa. Asi kubva Chitatu manheru, mhinduro yacho yanga iri yechisimba. Mapurisa anga achishandisa hutsi hunokachidza uye mabara erabha senzira yekutanga kuita. Vanhu vazhinji vandinoziva pachangu vakarohwa, vakavharirwa. Vanhu vanopfuura chiuru vakasungwa. Vatori venhau vari kurwiswa. Masangano epasi rose akaita seAmnesty neHuman Rights Watch ashora zviri kuitika. Komiti inodzivirira vatori venhau yashora zviri kuitika. Uye saka, mamiriro ezvinhu parizvino ane mhirizhonga chaizvo.
SHARIF ABDEL KOUDDOUS: Uye Ahmad Shokr, pakanga paine mishumo pamusoro pechiArab wire nhau masevhisi ekuti mauto eEjipitori akange aendesa mauto akasarudzika munzvimbo dzakakosha muCairo nekumwewo uye zvakare kuti vanhu vakaunganidzwa nezuro manheru, kusanganisira nhengo dzeMuslim Brotherhood. Wanzwei?
AHMAD SHOKR: Zvekare, ndakanzwa mashoko mamwe chete iwayo. Zvakaoma kuwana pfungwa chaiyo yezviri kuitika, zvakare, nekuda kwekuvharika kwemashoko. Asi zvechokwadi ndakanzwa kuti vatungamiri veMuslim Brotherhood, iro rinobudirira sangano rezvematongerwo enyika rakarambidzwa-rakarambidzwa, asi rinobvumirwa, rezvematongerwo enyika muEgypt, iro rakazivisa kuti raizotsigira zvizere kuratidzira nhasi. Pane mashoko ekuti vatungamiri vavo vakuru vakasungwa munzvimbo dzakasiyana siyana munyika.
Uye, ndinoreva, kuvepo kwekuchengetedza izvozvi muCairo, kwandiri, kwakakura. Panoratidzika kunge paine Central Security, uye panoratidzika kunge paine mauto akakosha, zvakare, kunyangwe, sezvandataura, zvakaoma kusimbisa aya mishumo. Uye pandiri kutaura, pane kurwisana kunotyisa kuri kuitika pari zvino pakati pevaratidziri pabhiriji, vari kupfurwa nemagasi ehutsi hunokachidza — ndinoreva, chaizvo, kutarisa kuguta, unoziva, maona angori kuratidzira kuri mheremhere munzvimbo dzakasiyana-siyana dzepakati pedhorobha, dzakafukidzwa nemakore nemakore ehutsi hunokachidza nehutsi hutema.
AMY GOODMAN: Ahmad Shokr, unogona here kutsanangura izvo vanhu mumigwagwa, vari kudaidza chii chaizvo?
AHMAD SHOKR: Zvakanaka, ndinoreva, kune zvakasiyana-siyana zvezvichemo zviri kuratidzwa mukuratidzira uku. Munoziva, vanhu vaneta nezvinhu zvakawanda. Vanhu vakadyiswa nemutemo wechimbichimbi, mamiriro enjodzi akatekeshera muEgypt kwemakore makumi matatu apfuura. Vakaguta nehuwori. Vaneta nekushaikwa kwemabasa uye nekuipa kuri kuita hupfumi hwenyika. Munoziva, vanhu - kwave nekufamba muEgypt kwemakore akati wandei ekuda muhoro wepasirese wenyika, uyo parizvino unogara pamapaunzi makumi matatu neshanu pamwedzi, ingangoita madhora manomwe kana masere eU.S. Saka kune zvakasiyana-siyana zvezvichemo zviri kuunzwa kumigwagwa. Asi tichitariswa nenziyo dzevanhu uye nhaurirano nevanhu mumugwagwa, kubatanidza-chido chekubatanidza, chinodikanwa chiri kutaurwa izvozvi, ndechekuti vanhu vanoda kuti hurumende ibviswe. Ndinoreva, ndiyo yave chirevo chekuratidzira uku mumazuva mashoma apfuura vanhu vanga vachiimba kakawanda, kuti vanoda kuti hurumende ibviswe. Vakadyiswa, uye vanoda hurumende itsva.
SHARIF ABDEL KOUDDOUS: Ahmad Shokr, chinonakidza zvakare ndechekuti kuratidzira uku hakuna mutungamiri. Unogona here kutsanangura kuti ndiani ari kuronga kuratidzira, nei kwakatanga muna Ndira 25, rinova Zuva reMapurisa reNyika, uye ndiani ari kumberi kwezviri kuitika? Vanhu vari mumigwagwa ndivanaani?
AHMAD SHOKR: Zvakanaka, vanhu vakatanga kufona kwekuratidzira iboka revechidiki vekuratidzira vanga vachironga kuburikidza nesocial media, kunyanya kuburikidza neFacebook. Vakatanga peji reFacebook kuti vashevedze kuratidziro iyi, iyo yakabva yangowana kudururwa kwerutsigiro. Makumi ezviuru zvevanhu vakasaina uye vakaratidza kutsigira kuratidzira, kwakakurudzirwa zvakanyanya nezviitiko zveTunisia masvondo mashoma apfuura. Saka iri raive danho rinotungamirwa nevechidiki ririkufambiswa nekutsamwa kwevechidiki muEgypt pane zvese zvandakambonyora.
Asi zvatiri kuona izvozvi zvinonakidza zvikuru. Tiri kuona marudzi ese emapoka akasiyana achibuda. Tinoona vashandi. Tiri kuona mapato ezvematongerwo enyika anopikisa, ayo akambotanga asingade kutsigira kuratidzira uku, achibuda nesimba rose. Uye saka, ndinofunga zvatiri kupupurira shanduko kubva kune yakatanga sesangano rinotungamirwa nevechidiki, bato revechidiki vekuEgypt vanoda shanduko, kumukirana kwakakurumbira.
AMY GOODMAN: Ahmad Shokr, tsanangura mukana wekuwana vanhu kune mumwe nemumwe. Ehe, iwe unongova nekuratidzira kwakawanda mumigwagwa, asi nyaya yese ye Facebook uye, zvakanaka, social media zvachose, Twitter. Indaneti pachayo iri pasi, uye zvakadaro kune chikamu chemukati chemukati chisingagoni kutorwa pasi, kana hurumende ichave ichitora pasi mabhangi, zvachose.
AHMAD SHOKR: Ehe. Indaneti yave pasi zvachose kubva manheru apfuura. Nyika yanga ichikanganisa kuwana zvese zviri zviviri Facebook neTwitter kwemazuva matatu apfuura. Uye varatidziri vanga vachitsvaga nzira dzekutenderera neinternet blockage, kuburikidza nekushandisa proxies nezvimwe zvakadaro. Asi nhasi, ndinofungidzira, zvakaoma kwazvo kuwana internet. Ndinoreva, yakavharwa zvachose kutenderera nyika. Ndinofunga kuti kune vashoma vanopa vari kushanda. Asi vanhu vazhinji havawani internet, havakwanise kuwana nharembozha kana kutumira mameseji. Ndinotenda kuti nzira chete yekukurukurirana ichokwadi mitsara yepasi. Asi zvizhinji zviri kuitika mumigwagwa pari zvino zvakarongwa kwemazuva mashoma apfuura. Vanhu—vanhu vakawanda vaida kupinda mukuratidzira mushure meminamato yeChishanu. Uye ini zvakare ndinofunga kuti pane zvakawanda zvepamhepo zviri kukonzera izvi. Chokwadi kumukirana kwakawanda kwatiri kuona mumigwagwa izvozvi.
SHARIF ABDEL KOUDDOUS: Ahmad, kumukira muTunisia kwakakonzera kudzingwa kweMutungamiri Ben Ali kwakave nemhedzisiro yekuratidzira muEgypt?
AHMAD SHOKR: Zvakanaka, ndinofunga zvakasiiwa vanhu vakafemerwa chaizvo. Uye i—munoziva, vanhu vazhinji, kekutanga, vanotenda kuti chimurenga chinogoneka, kuti shanduko yezvematongerwo enyika kubva munzira chinhu chinogona kuitika. Iwe unoziva, hongu, kune misiyano yakawanda pakati peEgypt neTunisia, misiyano mukuumbwa kwenharaunda dzakasiyana, dzehutongi. Ehe, mauto nemauto edziviriro muEgypt akakura zvakanyanya uye ane zvishongedzo zviri nani uye ane mari iri nani kupfuura zvavaive muTunisia. Saka, hongu, kune misiyano, uye kudzokororwa kwezviitiko zveTunisia-maitiro muEgypt uchiri mubvunzo. Asi hapana mubvunzo kuti vanhu vakanyatsofemerwa. Ndinoreva kuti, vanhu vandinoziva pachangu, avo mavhiki mashoma apfuura vangadai vasina kumbofunga kuisa tsoka mukuratidzira, avo vaive, kazhinji, vakasarudzika, vari kuenda kumigwagwa, vanodzingwa uye vanotenda kuti mumigwagwa uye kudaidzira shanduko kunogona kuita chimwe chinhu, kunogona kuita mutsauko izvozvi.
AMY GOODMAN: Ahmad, ndine mibvunzo miviri. Ndinoda kuti upedze nekutsanangura zvakare zvauri kuona sezvaunotarisisa Tahrir Square uye kutaura nezve kukosha kweskweya. Asi chekutanga, basa reUnited States mukusimbisa hutongi hweMubarak. Iyi ndiyo nzvimbo yakasarudzwa nemutungamiri wenyika VaObama kupa kero yavo kunyika yeMuslim, muCairo. Egypt ndiyo yechipiri pakukura kugamuchira rubatsiro rweUS, inodarika mabhiriyoni maviri emadhora pagore. VaEgipita vanoona sei United States? Uye pane zvanzi naMubarak panguva ino?
AHMAD SHOKR: Zvakanaka, ndinoreva, sezvawakataura, Amy, United States yagara iri mutsigiri mukuru weEgypt, mune zvemari, mune zvematongerwo enyika, muchiuto. Uye zvino vanonyatsoona Egypt sepakati pezvavanofarira mudunhu uye kuchengetedza chimiro uye kugadzikana, vachishandisa mutauro wavo, kuMiddle East. Uye, munoziva, vazhinji vevaIjipita mumigwagwa vanonyatsoziva izvi, vanonyatsoziva kuti hutongi hwehudzvanyiriri hwavanogara pasi pavo hunotsigirwa nehurumende yeUnited States, uye, ndinoreva, zviri pachena kuti havasi kufara nazvo.
Ikozvino, Secretary of State Clinton akataura mazuva mashoma apfuura pamusoro pekuvandudzwa kweEgypt kwakakosha, nezvekuda kwehutongi hweMubarak kuti igadzirise uye kuti vasiyane nekurwisana nemhirizhonga nevaratidziri. Asi zvinosiririsa, zvatiri kuona mumigwagwa yeCairo izvozvi-zvakare, pamberi pangu-zvakapesana. Tiri kuona kupararira kwemhirizhonga, nechisimba kwevaratidziri, vari kufora mumigwagwa, vachiudza mapurisa anodzivirira mvongamupopoto kuti vanoda kufora murunyararo, uye vakavharirwa zvachose kusvika paTahrir Square, inova nzvimbo yepakati peCairo. .
Zvino, kuti ndijekese, handisi kutarisa kuTahrir Square izvozvi. Ndiri kutarisa rimwe remabhiriji makuru muCairo anotungamira muchikwere. Saka, sikweya yakafukidzwa zvachose neCentral Security mauto, uye vari kuvharira chero varatidziri kuti vaedze kusvika ikoko, izvo zviri izvo vanhu ava vari pabhiriji vari kuedza kuita. Uye sezvandinotaura, kunetsana kuchiri kuitika. Pane ma tear gas arikudzingwa. Iyo tear gas yakazadza nzvimbo yese. Uye zvichiri kuitika pamberi pangu izvozvi.
SHARIF ABDEL KOUDDOUS: Chekupedzisira, Ahmad, tinoziva kuti kune mauto edziviriro mumigwagwa, ane mukurumbira baltaguia, avo, munoziva, mbavha, matsotsi anobhadharwa, anobhadharwa nehurumende kurova vanhu mumigwagwa. Pave paine chiratidzo chemauto mumigwagwa yeCairo kana kumwewo?
AHMAD SHOKR: Handina kumboona zviratidzo zvekuvapo kwemauto, kana kunzwa mishumo. Zvekare, tichipihwa zvipingaidzo zvese zvekuwana ruzivo pasi pemamiriro ezvinhu aya, handisati ndanzwa chero mishumo yemauto ari kuiswa mumigwagwa. Asi kune zviuru zveCentral Security mauto, uye ndine chokwadi mazhinji, mazhinji akapfeka hembe-akapfeka-hembe matsotsi akagadzirira kuendeswa-
SHARIF ABDEL KOUDDOUS: Ahmad Shokr, ndinokutendai zvikuru-
AHMAD SHOKR:— uye vakamboshandiswa kwemazuva matatu apfuura kuti varove varatidziri.
SHARIF ABDEL KOUDDOUS: Ahmad Shokr, ndinokutendai zvikuru nekuva nesu. Ahmad mupepeti webepanhau reEgypt Al-Masry Al-Youm, tichibatana nesu kubva kuCairo. Zvakaoma kwazvo kuwana mishumo kubva kuCairo izvozvi. Tiri kuenda kuzororo. Kana tadzoka, tichataura naPurofesa weYunivhesiti yeMichigan Juan Cole. Garai nesu.
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