Kwakabva: Democracy Now!
Isu tinoenda kuUkraine, uko Russia inoenderera mberi nekurwisa kwayo pamwe ne300-mamaira pamberi mudunhu rekumabvazuva. Izvi zvinouya sezvo US neWestern allies vachivimbisa zvimwe zvombo zvekudzivirira kweUkraine, zvichikonzera kushushikana kwekuwedzera sezvo Mutungamiri weRussia Vladimir Putin anosiya nhaurirano dzechibvumirano chekumisa pfuti. Isu tinotaura neUkraine sainzi wezvematongerwo enyika uye munyori wenhoroondo Denis Pilash, anove mutongi weruzhinji, chikamu cheSotsialnyi Rukh, uye ari kuitawo basa rekubatsira vanhu kumadokero kweUkraine izvo zvaanodaidza kuti "musana wekupokana kweUkraine." Anoti mhirizhonga yemauto yaPutin inofanira kuonekwa seyakafanana nekupinda kweUS muIraq nedzimwe nyika.
AMY MURUME AKANAKA: Mutungamiri weRussia, Vladimir Putin, vakaraira kuvharwa kwenzvimbo huru yesimbi muguta rekumaodzanyemba kwakadziva kumabvazuva kweUkraine, Mariupol, uko zviuru zvevaUkraine zvakavharirwa, kusanganisira vanhuwo zvavo nevarwi vane regiments maviri, 36th Marine Brigade uye Azov Brigade iri kure-kurudyi. Russia yanga ichifunga kurova imba iyi asi parizvino yasarudza kuivhara. Izvi zvinouya sekutaura kwaPutin kuti Russia, "yakasunungura" guta rose, iro rakaparadzwa nemavhiki ekurwiswa kweRussia.
Kumabvazuva kweUkraine, kurwa kuri kuenderera mberi nemakiromita mazana matatu. Gavhuna weLuhansk anoti Russia ikozvino inodzora 300% yedunhu. Luhansk ndeimwe yematunhu maviri anoumba Donbas kumabvazuva kweUkraine.
United States nevamwe vayo vari kuenderera mberi nekuendesa zvombo kuUkraine. NeChitatu, Mutungamiri Biden vakasangana nevatungamiriri vemauto eUS kuWhite House.
PRESIDENT JOE BIDZA: Zvombo nepfuti zviri kuyerera zuva nezuva. Uye tiri kuona kukosha kwekubatana kwedu nekudyidzana pasi rese.
AMY MURUME AKANAKA: Mune zvimwe zviri kuitika, makurukota eSpain neDenmark ari muKyiv nhasi kuzoita hurukuro nemutungamiri weUkraine, VaVolodymyr Zelensky. Zvichakadaro, Human Rights Watch yaburitsa gwaro ripoti vachipomera Russia mhosva dzehondo muBucha, sabhabhu yeKyiv. Boka iri rakati rakawana humbowo hwakawanda hwekuurayiwa kwechipfupi, kumanikidza kutsakatika uye kushungurudzwa.
Takabatanidzwa iye zvino naDenis Pilash, nyanzvi yezvematongerwo enyika yekuUkraine uye munyori wenhoroondo, nhengo yeUkraine democratic socialist sangano Sotsialnyi Rukh, kana Social Movement. Iye zvakare mupepeti pa Commons: Journal of Social Criticism.
Welcome to Dememocracy Zvino!, Denis. Zvinofadza kuva nemi. Kana iwe uchigona kutanga nekutaura nezvekupokana muUkraine? Isu tinonzwa zvakawanda nezvekupokana kwemauto, asi kana iwe uchigona kutaura nezvazvo, zvakazara, rudzi rwekupokana rwusingawane kufukidzwa?
DENIS PILASH: Chaizvoizvo, Ukraine, haina kumira nekuda kwekupokana kwemauto, kunyangwe mazana ezviuru zvevanhu vakazvipira kune Armed Forces kana territorial defense units, asiwo nekuda kwemamiriyoni evanhu vari kuita izvi chete mabasa ekubatsira vanhu uye kuchengetedza. zvinhu zvinomhanya. Semuyenzaniso, vashandi vakakosha, vashandi vezvitima, vashandi vekambani yezvitima yenyika, vakaita basa rehugamba nekubvisa mamirioni avanhu vanotiza kubva kumatunhu ane ngozi kuenda kune akachengeteka. Uye chaizvoizvo gumi nevaviri vavo vakaurawa. Uye vazhinji vakaurayiwa vachiita mabasa avo. Izvi zvinoshandawo kuvashandi vehutano, vanamukoti uye vanachiremba, avo vari kuisa hupenyu hwavo panjodzi kuti vaponese vamwe. Uye zvakare, Russia iri kunanga zvipatara, zvakare, uye saka, vazhinji vevanhu ava vanourayiwa, zvakare. Uye, kazhinji, isu tine aya maratidziro akasarudzika ekubatana kwakaitika pasi munzvimbo dzakasiyana nemaguta munyika yese, vakabatsira vanhu vaifanira kutama, uye vakabatsirawo kugovera rubatsiro rwevanhu, mushonga, chikafu uye. zvichingodaro. Uye pamwe chete, izvi zvinoumba musana wekupokana kweUkraine.
NEMEEN SHAIKH: Uye, Denis, ndinoda kubvunza nezve, nezuro chaiye - takazvitaura munhanganyaya yedu - kuburitswa kweHuman Rights Watch. ripoti pamhosva dzehondo muBucha. Wakanga wataura muna Kurume, mwedzi wapfuura, kuti mhosva dzehondo dzaPutin dziri kutevera mumakwara emhosva dzehondo dzakaparwa nehurumende dzakaita seUnited States. Asi kubva uku kuurayiwa kwevanhu muBucha, wataura kuti kuenzanisa kwakarurama iko zvino kungave kune zvakaitwa neIndonesia mushure mekutorwa kweEast Timor kana zvakaitwa nePakistan - West Pakistan yakaita kuEast Pakistan, ikozvino Bangladesh, muhondo muna 1971. unotsanangura izvozvo? Chii chaunoona sezvo hondo yakachinja, kuti hondo yakachinja sei kubva muna March, uye nei uchifunga kuti mamiriro ezvinhu aya ave akarurama?
DENIS PILASH: Ini ndinofunga kuti imhosva imwechete yekurwa kwemauto kwakaitwa nedzimwe hurumende dzakawanda uye mamwe ma imperialists, zvakare. Uye munyaya iyi, hondo yaPutin muUkraine kana hondo dzake muChechnya dzaive - kana hondo yeYeltsin muChechnya, yakanga iri mumutsara mumwe chete, vanoti, Bush naBlair nemakoroni avo achirwisa Iraq. Asi kusimba kwehutsinye uhwu hwakaratidzwa nemifananidzo iyi inotyisa kubva kuBucha, Irpin, Borodyanka nedzimwe nzvimbo dzeKyiv, dzinotiratidza huipi hwese hwehutsinye, kutanga kubva kumhirizhonga yepabonde, kubva mukutambudzwa uye kuurayiwa kwevanhu vakawanda. Uye pano tinoonawo imwe mhando yetsananguro yemafungiro nevamwe - mumuchina weRussia propaganda iyo Ukraine, neimwe nzira, inofanira kucheneswa.
Uye izvi zvinotitungamira kune aya anologies kwete chete, vazhinji vakarangarira, Srebrenica uye zvakaitika muhondo mune yaimbova Yugoslavia mu'90s, asi chaizvo kune zvakaitika, semuenzaniso, apo mudzvanyiriri weAmerican Suharto akatora East Timor uye. yakaburitsa zviito zvekuuraya rudzi pavagari vemo muma1970. Saka, tinoona kuti mune dzimwe nzvimbo chokwadi chebasa iri rine hutsinye zvokuti rinotungamirira kukuparadzwa kukuru kwehupenyu hwevanhu.
NEMEEN SHAIKH: Uye saka, Denis, unotsigira here kuenderera mberi kwekupihwa kwezvombo kuUkraine, iyo iri kuwedzera zvakanyanya izvozvi, zvisinei nekuti vazhinji vanoti kupa zvombo izvi kunongowedzera hondo?
DENIS PILASH: Iwe unoona, kana, senge, kuita analogies, saka pamwe kuendesa zvombo zveSoviet neChinese kuVietnam, ivo vakarebesa kuramba kweVietnamese, uye nekudaro vakarebesa hondo, asi kwanga kuchiri hutsinye husingaite hwakaitwa nesimba remampiriyamu - mu iyo nyaya, iyo US; munyaya iyi, Putin's Russia. Uye kuitira kuchengetedza hupenyu hwevanhu hwakarasika mune ese aya airstrikes nemabhomba, nekuti vanhuwo zvavo vari kufa zvakanyanya munyika yese, uye, chaizvo, hapana nzvimbo munyika inogona kunge yakachengeteka chaizvo, sezvinhu, zvinosanganisira zvinhu zvechiuto, kusanganisira zvikoro uye. zvipatara, zvakarohwa munzvimbo dzakawanda. Saka, semuenzaniso, kuve ne-anti-ndege zvombo, inochengetedza vanhu ava vakahwanda mudzimba dzavo dzepasi, mudzimba dzavo uye zvichingodaro.
Asi neimwe nzira, zvinhu izvi - isu tinofanirwawo kuyeuka kuti Russia zvakare yakapihwa zvombo zvekuMadokero, kubva kuGermany, France uye kubva kune dzimwe nyika, uye kuti kunyangwe izvozvi zvichiri kufambiswa nekubhadhara uku kwemafuta eRussia negesi. Saka, zvinogona kutaurwa kuti kune akawanda zvikamu zveGerman mumatangi eRussia kupfuura maAmerican munition muUkraine maoko.
Asi, kazhinji, isu tinofanirwa kutarisa kuti iyi rubatsiro rwemauto runodiwa neUkraine kuramba, kuti ichaenda kuUkraine, uye haina kungoshandiswa sechikonzero cheizvi, munoziva, kuwedzera kwemauto-industrial zvivako munzvimbo. dzimwe nyika dzokuMadokero, nokuti hapana ari kuwana kubva kune mamwe mauto eGermany kana US Zviri chaizvo kune vanhu vari pasi, kusvika kune vanhu vari muUkraine kushorwa, vanoda izvi, kwete zvido zvemakambani aya anofanira kuchengetedzwa.
AMY MURUME AKANAKA: Saka, Denis Pilash, rega ndikubvunze nezve Azov Battalion, nekuti US ine mutemo wekuti zvombo kuUkraine hazvigone kuenda kwavari, asi iko zvino nekuwanda kukuru kwezvombo, hapana nzira yazvinogona kuteverwa. kupi. Iwe wanga uri mutsoropodzi anotyisa wekurudyi muUkraine. Ndedzipi pfungwa dzako pane izvi? Uye zvakare mutsoropodzi anotyisa wekuwedzera kwe NATO, uye zvino wava neSweden, une Finland inoti vanoda kujoina NATO, kunyangwe ichiita sechimwe chezvikonzero zvekupinda uku, Ukraine iri chikamu che NATO, zvaisakwanisika kwemakore aizotevera.
DENIS PILASH: Yaingove fungidziro chete. Yakaunzwa pamwe chete neRussia propaganda. Uye chaizvoizvo, ndinofunga kuti mukuru mutsigiri we NATO aive Vladimir Putin pachake, akasundidzira - uye aya aive mazwi, semuenzaniso, aIlya Ponomarev, mumiriri ega muparamende yeRussia akavhota achipokana nekutorwa kweCrimea, kuti izvi zvichatungamira mukusundidzira Ukraine mumaoko e. NATO. Uye iye zvino ari kuita zvimwe chete neFinland neSweden.
Uye maererano neAzov, iyo ikozvino haisi yehondo kwemakore manomwe asi rejiment muNational Guard yeUkraine, zvakanaka, ingori chikamu chimwe chete mukupokana kwakawanda, izvo zvino ndinofunga kuti inosvika hafu yemiriyoni vanhu vakabatikana. mungave muchiuto kana munzvimbo idzi dzedziviriro dzenharaunda. Uye mazhinji acho akanyatso kuvharirwa muMariupol, guta rine - kurarama kuburikidza nekukomba kwehutsinye. Uye pamwe hutsinye huripo, kana hwaratidzwa, pamwe vanofananidza neavo vari muKyiv Oblast. Saka, ini ndinofunga kuti, muchokwadi, ikozvino boka iri, rinoita chidimbu chidiki mukupikisa kwemauto eUkraine. Uye ini handifunge kuti zvakakosha, zvese maererano, senge, muzana kana zvichienzaniswa nevamwe vese vemauto neNational Guard uye zvichingodaro, kana mumamiriro ezvematongerwo enyika, nekuti, zvakare, iko kure kure. muUkraine haina kumbobvira yanyanya kufarirwa musarudzo, uye haina kumbobvira yave nehuwandu hwemagariro hwaro.
NEMEEN SHAIKH: Uye, Denis, ndinoda kuti utsanangure pane imwe pfungwa yawakataura pamusoro peizvi mune imwe nguva ichangopfuura indavhiyu. Pamauto eAzov, wakataura izvozvo, uchitora, "Sekunzwisisa kwedu huwori hwekutonga kwaAbbas uye hunhu hweHamas ... haifanirwe kuve chipingamupinyi pakunzwa dambudziko re[Palestine]," ndizvo zvinofanira kudaro. kuvapo kwebapiro rekurudyi muUkraine kusave nzira yekusateerera kunhamo yevaUkraine. Unogona here kutsanangura pane izvozvo, kuti unoona sei mamiriro maviri aya seanongofanana?
DENIS PILASH: Ini ndinofunga kuti chero fananidziro ndeye - zvakanaka, vanogona kunge vachiri kure, asi musimboti wemamiriro ese ari maviri ndewekuti iwe unofanirwa kunyatso kutarisana nevanhu vanobva pasi, midzi. Unofanira kunzwa nhamo yevarume nevakadzi vari kutambura uye vari kunetseka, mune zvose zviri zviviri. Uye chaizvo, uchishandisa zvese izvi, iwe unoziva, kukumbira matambudziko aripo mune ese mamiriro, ingori chikonzero chekusara - iwe unoziva, kuyedza kuramba usina kwawakarerekera. Asi sekutaura kwakaita muchakabvu Archbishop Desmond Tutu, kana usina kwawakarerekera mukukonana kuri pakati pemudzvanyiriri neanodzvinyirirwa, unenge uchitotamba kudivi remudzvanyiriri.
Saka, uye pano, ndinofunga kuti kutarisisa kwakawanda kwave kuchinzi kune kure kurudyi muUkraine. Uye chaizvo isu takarasikirwa zvakare nekurudyi kune rumwe rutivi rwehondo, uye chaizvo isu takarasikirwa nenguva iyo - senge, ndinogona kutaura neRussia nyanzvi yezvemagariro evanhu Greg Yudin, uyo anoratidza kuti hutongi hweRussia pachahwo hwakawedzera sei kuva divi refascist, saka hwaive hutongi hwehudzvanyiriri hwakavhurika. Uye hondo iyi, inhanho hombe mukusangomutsa manzwiro ese ehurudzi muEastern Europe mune dzimwe nyika, asi, chekutanga, yaive ichiwedzera manzwiro euultranationalist muRussia, uye yaiwedzera hudzvanyiriri muRussia. Uye kwaive kudzvanyirira chero rudzi rwekusagutsikana uye kupotsa kudzima kuratidzira kwekurwisa hondo.
Saka, zvakare, dambudziko hombe pano nderekuti isu tine simba reimperiyasi iro rava kutungamirwa nehutongi hwekure-kurudyi, kwete chete maererano nemafungiro ayo, kukwezva Ivan Ilyin nevamwe vanofunga nezve fascist, asi maererano nepraxis yayo, chii. yakatoita kwete muUkraine chete asi mune dzimwe nzvimbo dzakawanda munzvimbo yepasi-Soviet, iyo yainoona, senge, semuenzaniso, US inoita yakananga kuLatin America dunhu, kuti iseri kwayo, uye ine kodzero yekuita chero yainoda. . Inoita zvakafanana kune nyika dzakavakidzana munyaya yeRussia.
AMY MURUME AKANAKA: Denis Pilash, wanga uchitsoropodza zvakanyanya basa rakaitwa neRussia oligarchs, ndinoreva, kudzokera ku2014, kutorwa kweRussia kweCrimea. Asi iwe wakataurawo nezve kubatanidzwa kweUkraine elite. Kana iwe uchigona kutaura pamusoro pezvavari uye kukosha kwavo nhasi, uye kana maonero ako achinja?
DENIS PILASH: Zvakanaka, chaizvo, veRussia neUkraine elite, iyo oligarchic capitalist class, vakabva kune imwechete sosi, saka vakave mhedzisiro yekuunganidza kwekutanga kwemari muma'90s, vanhu vakabata, nenzira yematsotsi, hupfumi. zvenyika uye avo vakaparadza zvomenemene vagari vazvo vamene kuti vave rutivi rweboka renyika yose re<em>capitalist, yeboka rinotonga pasi rose. Ndinofunga kuti musiyano mudiki ndewe, zviri pachena, kuti muRussia kuvepo kweakawanda aya siloviki, aya ekuchengetedza masevhisi vanhu, uye zvakare mamwe mabhii ehurumende, yakasimba, asi ichiri kuchengetedza zvido zveRussia hombe capital.
Uye kana iri Ukraine, une nhamba yeaya anokwikwidza oligarchs akaedza kwete chete kudzora hupfumi asi zvakare kupesvedzera uye kutonga sarudzo dzezvematongerwo enyika munyika, uye vachiri kutamba zvakafanana uye vakaratidzawo kuzvidza kwavo. vagari vekwavo, kwete nevazhinji vavo vakatiza - senge, vasati vapinda, vachangobva kuUkraine - asi vanoenderera mberi nekupambwa kwenyika iyi, uye vanoedza kuchengeta, sevanoshanda navo vekuRussia, kuchengetedza zvakabiwa. kubva kuvanhu vavo munzvimbo dzemitero. Uye ichi ndicho chikonzero, kana tichitaura nezve, semuenzaniso, kutora midziyo ye oligarchs, ingave yeRussia kana maUkraine, isu tinodawo kugadzirisa nyaya yeiyi offshore capitalism yemitero, uko ruzhinji rweava oligarchic elites, ivo. vaizvishandisa kudzivirira kwete kubhadhara mitero chete asiwo kudzivirira kuva - kuona nzira dzavaibiridzira nyika.
NEMEEN SHAIKH: Saka, Denis, ungatsanangura here? Iwe unofunga kuti iyi oligarchic kirasi muUkraine kana Russia iri kubatsirwa nehondo iyi? Uye ndivanaani vachabatsirwa nehondo iyi, sezvaunoiona?
DENIS PILASH: Zvakanaka, chaizvoizvo, hondo iyi yave isina musoro zvokuti inoratidzika sekuti zvibereko zvinogona kuhwinwa nevamwe muvakuru, ivo chaizvoizvo hapana kana vachienzaniswa nekuparadzwa kunounzwa. Uye chaizvo, ndinofunga zvakapfuura kupfuura, senge, chikonzero chaicho, kumwe kurudziro chaiyo. Asi, chaizvoizvo, mune chero mamiriro ezvinhu ehondo, kana mamwe mamiriro ezvinhu akaoma, akafanana nedzidziso yekuvhundutsa. Hongu, boka rinotonga, rinotora mukana uyu kudzikamisa kodzero nerusununguko rweruzhinji nepavanogona napo, uyezve kuita kuti simba ravo risimbe. Saka, zviri pachena, zvaive zvakadaro neRussia. Ipapo Russia - yeRussia, iyi yakatwasuka yesimba, inova yakatonyanya kuve nechepakati uye yakazvimirira. Uye vanhu ava vari kutonga - saPutin neshamwari dzake vari kutonga kwemakore makumi maviri uye vasina kutariswa uye vasina mhinduro uye vasina maitiro edemokrasi kubva pasi.
Uye muUkraine, tinoona zvakare kuti, semuenzaniso, maMP edu e-neoliberal, nhasi uno, vakaedza kumisa mutemo uchaita kuti zvive nyore kumisa vashandi, kuderedza kodzero dzevashandi. Saka, vanhu vakafanana iye zvino vakakosha pakudzivirira kweUkraine, kodzero dzavo dzakarwiswa uye dziri kurwiswa nevakuru, avo vanoshandisa mamiriro ehondo zvichida kuderedza nzvimbo yekodzero dzevashandi uye yevashandi. Saka, ndizvo zvazviri, ndinofunga, munenge chero hondo yatinoona nhasi. Uyu haana musiyano.
NEMEEN SHAIKH: Uye, Denis, pakupedzisira, chii chaunoona semhedzisiro yehondo iyi? Ndeapi marudzi emvumo yaizofanirwa kuitwa neUkraine? Idzo dzinogona kuitika here kana kuti dzinodiwa? Izvi zvichapera sei?
DENIS PILASH: Zvakaoma kufanotaura. Uye, chaizvo, imwe pfungwa yekuve nezvombo kuUkraine kuita fananidzo iyi nevanhu vanobatanidzwa mumasangano evashandi kuronga. Vanoziva kuti kutaurirana nashefu, ane simba kukupfuura, unofanirawo kuva nesimba padivi pako. Uye zvino zvinoita sekunge Russia ichiri kusundira kune imwe mhando ye - yekuva nemukana wekubata hombe chunk yeUkraine, uye pamwe kubata chikamu chikuru chekumabvazuva kweUkraine. Uye ndosaka isiri panguva ino yekunyatsoda kuita, senge, yakajeka uye yakaenzana nhaurirano nedivi reUkraine. Uye ichi ndicho chikonzero nei isu tichida kwazvo kuve neRussia patafura, kugara uye kunyatso kutaurirana kumisa kurwa chaiko, uye kwete izvo zvakaitwa, senge, kare, kana kuvhura mikoto yekubatsira vanhu kazhinji kwaireva kuti vari mungozi neRussia shellings uye. Moto weRussia.
Asi isu takaona zvakare kuti Russia yanga iri - mauto eRussia anga asina kunyatsoshanda munzira dzakawanda, uye tarisiro yavo yekutanga yekuti vachave neblitzkrieg yakatsetseka, yakakundikana. Vakakundikana. Uye zvino vachiri kuzopa rumwe rudzi rwekukunda kune vagari vemo uye neparaganda, zvakare.
Asi zvinoratidzika kuti, chaizvoizvo, kune zvakawanda zvinogoneka migumisiro. Uye mamwe acho anotyisa chaizvo. Asi nekuve nekubatana kwepasirese kwakakwana, zvinoreva zvakare kusunda kuburikidza nenzvimbo yakafara yezvinofanira kuitwa kubatsira Ukraine. Haisi chete rubatsiro rwevanhu kana rwechiuto kana kubatsira vapoteri. Iri zvakare nyaya yekudzima chikwereti cheUkraine chekunze. Inyaya yekuchengetedza hwaro hwekuvaka patsva, kudzoreredza kwenyika nenzira yakasarudzika uye inosanganisirwa, inogutsa. Zvinorevawo kuona imwe ecosocialist imwe nzira kune iripo neoliberal capitalism, iyo isingabatanidze mafossil mafuta ekutonga empire seRussia yemazuvano kana yemazuva ano Saudi Arabia, sezvo iri kurwa hondo yematsotsi muYemen, iri, uye zvakare kuita demokrasi kurongeka kwenyika. , kwete kutendeukira kukutamba uku kwemasimba makuru, anoona nyika seimwe nzvimbo yekutamba yekugoverazve nzvimbo dzesimba, asi kunyatsopa izwi uye kupa simba nyika diki nevanhu vadzo kuti vamise kutonga uku kwevakuru. masimba emamperiya, seUS, Russia, China, uye unogona kuenderera mberi nerondedzero. Saka, ndezvechokwadi - isu tinoda chiono chakaomarara cheramangwana kuitira - kwete kungomisa iyi hondo, asi kudzivirira zvimwe.
AMY MURUME AKANAKA: Tinoda kukutendai, Denis Pilash, nekubatana nesu, nyanzvi yezvematongerwo enyika yekuUkraine -
DENIS PILASH: Ndotenda kwazvo.
AMY MURUME AKANAKA: - munyori wezvakaitika kare, nhengo yeUkraine democratic socialist sangano, rakashandurirwa muchiChirungu, Social Movement, bato rekuruboshwe rakagadzirwa nevanhu vanoshanda veUkraine, uyewo mupepeti we Commons: Journal of Social Criticism, achitaura nesu kubva kumadokero kweUkraine.
ZNetwork inopihwa mari chete kuburikidza nerupo rwevaverengi vayo.
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