Muzivi Srecko Horvat inokurukura zvidzidzo zvenhoroondo zvatingadzidza kubva mukurwisana kwehugandanga kunopesana nefascism kwakaitwa nemaPartisan muYugoslavia mukati meHondo Yenyika II. Horvat zvakare inotaura nezvekuwedzera kuchangobva kuitika kwemauto ezvematongerwo enyika akanyanya-kurudyi muEurope uye kuti maitiro aya uye nyaya yaJulian Assange inorevei kune ramangwana redemokrasi.
Takaburitsa chidimbu chebvunzurudzo iyi paIntercepted. Zvinotevera iodhiyo uye zvinyorwa zvehurukuro yese. Intercepted iri kuenda kuhiatus yezhizha uye ichadzoka nezvikamu zvitsva munaGunyana 2019.
Jeremy Scahill: Izvi zvinonzi Intercepted.
[Kupindira kwemimhanzi.]
JS: Ndini Jeremy Scahill kuuya kwauri kubva kumahofisi eThe Intercept muNew York City uye ichi chikamu chakakosha chebhonasi cheIntercepted.
VaDonald Trump vakakurudzira rudzi rutsva rwemubatanidzwa munyika, mubatanidzwa wemafascist, vatongi, vadzvinyiriri. Zvinoshamisa kusiyanisa mubatanidzwa wepasi rose uri kusimukira wehug-ery kune bato rakaumbwa kubva mumarara eHondo Yenyika II. Yaizivikanwa seNon-Aligned Movement. Marshal Josip Broz Tito wekuYugoslavia uye Mutungamiriri weIndia Nehru pamwe chete naNasser weEgypt vakaumba mubatanidzwa wenyika dzakanga dzabvumirana kusazviisa pasi pepfungwa kana kutonga kwehumambo huviri hukuru huri kusimukira munyika panguva iyoyo: United States. uye Soviet Union. Muna 1961, muBelgrade, sangano rakaumbwa zviri pamutemo uye raisanganisira nyika zhinji dzeAsia neAfrica pamwe nenyika dzeLatin America nedzimwe kumaodzanyemba kwepasirese.
Pakati pevanonyanya kukosha mukusikwa kweichi sangano paiva naTito weYugoslavia. Munguva yeHondo Yenyika II, akatungamira hondo yeguerilla kurwisa fascism pasi pemureza wePartisan. Sirogani yavo "Rufu kune fascism. Vanhu vakasununguka.โ MaPartisan akabva mhiri kweBalkan uye vakabudirira kukunda vese maItaly fascists nemaNazi. Kurwa uku kwakazoita kuti matunhu matanhatu abatane pasi pemureza weYugoslavia. Sapurezidhendi weiyi nyika itsva, Tito aifanira kudzikamisa dzikamo pakati peSoviet Union yakanga yakashatirwa kuti Yugoslavia yakanga isingabvumi kuiswa seri kweIron Curtain neUnited States iyo yakanga ichiwedzera kuva mambo mumurangariro wayo wenyika yose.
Marshal Tito aive nemukurumbira wekumira naStalin pamwe naWinston Churchill neUnited States. Uye nyika yaakavaka yaive kuyedza kunoshamisa mune dzimwe nzira dzekuronga nzanga. Yugoslavia yakagamuchira hukuru hwevashandi kune hutano hwevanhu uye yakagadzirisa mafekitori ane hukama. Yakasimbisa kubatana kwenyika uye kuremekedza kusiyana-siyana kwevanhu vayo uye geography.
Iyo Yugoslavia yakapwanyika mu1990s, muhondo yehutsinye yehumhondi apo vezvematongerwo enyika vakanyanya kuita zvekudzokorora zvekare uye kusimudzirwa kwenzvimbo dzesimba. Mutungamiriri weSerbia Slobodan Miloลกevic neCroat Franjo Tudjman vese vakaita hurongwa hwehumhondi hwekuuraya vanhu vakawanda uye kutamiswa. Kuuraya kwakawanda kwakaitika munyika ine marudzi akasiyana-siyana yeBosnia iyo yaive nehuwandu hwevaMuslim muYugoslavia.
Pane zvakawanda zvatingadzidza kubva mukurwira kwevaPartisan, nzanga yavakatsvaga kuvaka uye kuguma kunotyisa kwenyaya yeYugoslavia. Zvidzidzo izvi zvinobata zvakasimba munguva yedu yazvino munhoroondo.
Kubatana neni iye zvino kuti nditaure pamusoro peizvi zvose, muzivi uye munyori Srecko Horvat. Iye ndiye munyori we "Europe Inodei?: Iyo Union uye Kusagutsikana Kwayo" - iyo yaakanyora naSlavoj ลฝiลพek - "Welcome to the Desert of Post-Socialism," pamwe ne "The Radicality of Love." NaYanis Varoufakis, ndiye mumwe wevakatanga Democracy muEurope Movement. Bhuku rake razvino ndere "Nhetembo Kubva Mune Ramangwana: Nei Global Liberation Movement iri Yedu Yebudiriro Yekupedzisira Mukana."
Srecko Horvat unogamuchirwa kune iyi bhonasi chikamu cheIntercepted.
Srecko Horvat: Ndatenda nekundiwanira pano.
JS: Saka, ndinoda kukubvunzai kutanga, mune yakakura kwazvo mufananidzo pfungwa, munoziva, isu muUnited States, hongu, tanga tichitevera kusimuka kwaDonald Trump. Uye pese paanotsveta, kana kuhotsira, kana chero, inova nyaya huru yenhau, asi muEurope mave nemhando dzemafambiro akafanana anga achikwira kusimba kana kutyisidzira kutora masimba anoita seanogovana zvakawanda zvakafanana. Donald Trump uye chiono chake chenyika. Izvo chete kune vanhu vasingazvitevedze zvakanyanya izvo zvave kuitika kuEurope nerudzi rwekukwirazve kwezvakaoma kurudyi kana neo-fascistic mafambiro?
SH: Zvakanaka, ndaizotanga kutaura kuti izvo zvatinogona kupupurira muEurope nhasi ndezvekuti hazvisi chete kuti tine kumuka kweiyo yakaoma-bapiro, kana sezvawakadana iwe, mafascist movements uye vatungamiri vepopulist avo vatove nesimba rakadai saMatteo. Salvini muItaly semuenzaniso, asingatenderi vapoteri kuti vafambe vachipinda muzviteshi zvezvikepe zveItaly semuenzaniso, kana Viktor Orbรกn ari kutonga muHungary. Iwe unoziva, uyo ane mukurumbira wekutaura kuti yapera nedemokrasi uye kuti tiri kurarama munguva inonzi "i-liberal democracy." Uye zvakare, iwe zvakare une vatungamiriri vakasiyana-siyana vekurudyi seyazvino kunyomba muAustria neStrache zvinoreva kuti Europe iri kunyatso kuchinjika kune iyi bapiro rekurudyi, kwete pfungwa chete, asi chokwadi.
Asi sezvo iwe wakataura Donald Trump uye kuti ivo vakafanana naTrump, ndingati hongu, ivo vakafanana naTrump kunyange iwe ukatora semuenzaniso, basa raUmberto Eco, munyori akakurumbira weItaly, asiwo, semiotician inonakidza uye yezvematongerwo enyika. anofunga akanyora chinyorwa chipfupi kwazvo chinodaidzwa kuti "Ur-Fascism" apo anodudza akati wandei maitiro efascism uye chimwe chazvo kutya vanhu vausingazive. Imwe yacho ndeye misogyny, uyezve iwe une humwe hunhu hwaanoisa sezvaunoziva, iyo yekutanga fascism. Uye kana iwe ukatora aya maitiro semuenzaniso, woashandisa kuna Trump, kuSalvini, kuBolsonaro, kune vamwe vatungamiriri pasi rese, uchaona kuti mamiriro chaiwo nhasi akafanana nerudzi urwu rweUr-Fascism.
Asi chii chakakosha kutaura, nekuti panguva ino, VaTrump vari kuUK, vachishanyira UK Angela Merkel sezvaungangove uchiziva kuti akapa hurukuro kuHarvard nguva pfupi yadarika. Uye chii chiri kubatana pakati peizvi? Ini ndinofunga izvo zvinowanzoitwa nevanosununguka, rudzi urwu rwekududzira rusina ruzivo rwekusimuka kwekurudyi-bapiro populist, ndeyekuti ivo vanenge vachizvipa sekunge iyo yebapiro rerudyi ideology yakadonha kubva kudenga. Asi Merkel kuHarvard, iwe wakaona nenzira iyo zvakare vezvenhau vakasununguka vainyora nezvazvo: "Ah, pakupedzisira mutungamiri weEurope achadzidzisa Trump, iwe unoziva, kuti tinofanirwa kuputsa madziro nezvimwe zvakadaro." Asi unoziva here kuti Angela Merkel aivepi mavhiki mashoma apfuura?
Akashanyira Croatia nyika yandakabva, yaiva chikamu cheYugoslavia. Uye akashanyira Croatia sarudzo dzeEurope dzisati dzaitwa. Uye sarudzo dzeEurope dzisati dzaitwa, akaita hurukuro yekuramba, kwaaitaura nezvekuramba nyika. Uye akabata hurukuro pamusangano wezvematongerwo enyika webato rinochengetedza reCroatia, iro rakadzama munhoroondo yekudzokorora zvakare mamwe matambudziko pamuganhu nevapoteri uye zvichingodaro. Uye paakanga achitaura nezvekuramba kusarudzika nekunyatso kutsigira nyika.
Uye ndinofunga kuti iri ndiro dambudziko, kunyangwe Angela Merkel paanotaura kuHarvard, kuti isu tinofanirwa kuramba kusarudzika. Zvaakaita uye zvakaitwa nemuzinda wezvematongerwo enyika muEurope mumakore apfuura ndezvekuti ivo vakanyatsogadzira zvikara, munoziva. Vakanga vachigadzira ivhu rakaorera rekusikwa kwaSalvini, Orbรกn, Sebastian Kurz. Nenzira ipi? Nekuisa hunyoro, semuenzaniso, kudzika kutsva panharaunda yeEuropean Union. Vateereri vako vangangove vachiri kurangarira muenzaniso weGreece uye 2015 Oxi referendum. Uye kune kufanana kuUnited States zvakare. Donald Trump haana kudonha kubva kudenga. Ini ndinofunga kirasi yakasununguka muUS inofanirwa kuzvibvunza mubvunzo wakakomba: Donald Trump akabvepi chaizvo?
JS: Uri, hongu, uchitaura nezvaAngela Merkel, Chancellor weGermany, anga ari pabutiro reMagazini yeNguva muU.S., vanhu vakamuenzanisa muno muU.S. naHillary Clinton kuti ndiye munhu mukuru ane mutoro panyika. Uye sezvaunotaura, iye ndiye achasimuka kana kupa matanho ekugadzirisa achipokana naDonald Trump.
Asi ndinoda kudzokera kwamuri ndichitaura nezvekushanya kwake kuCroatia. Srecko, chimwe chezvinhu zvandakaona mumakore akati wandei apfuura, uye ndakaita zvakawanda zvekufamba ndichitenderera yaichimbova Yugoslavia, kusanganisira muCroatia, ndechekuti ndakaona kuti kwave nekufamba uku kubva kuYugoslavia Civil. Hondo - hondo yekuparadzana yeYugoslavia - kuputsa zvese izvi zviyeuchidzo zvinopesana nefascist munyika yese muCroatia.
Uye vari kutanga kutsiviwa nezviyeuchidzo zvinonzi ndezvekukudza vakabatwa necommunism. Uye ivo vanowanzova nemhando yedzidziso dzebhaibheri dzechiKristu kwavari, asi varikuridzawo mazita evanhu vakarwa uye vakafa kuti vadzinge fascist yekuItaly, kana maNazi kubva kuGermany. Uye kune iyi yakakura nhoroondo yekudzokorora iri kuitika izvozvi muCroatia. Uye tinogona kutaura nezvedzimwe dzaichimbova marepublic eYugoslavia. Asi nekupihwa kuti unobva kuCroatia, ini ndinongoda kukubvunza nezve kudzima kwenhoroondo uye nekupa chokwadi chisina chokwadi chinyorwa chitsva chenhoroondo nenzira yezviyeuchidzo zvinotsiva izvo zvekurwisa-fascist kurwira.
SH: Mubvunzo wakanaka kwazvo, uye ndinofara kuti wakaubvunza. Uye ndinoziva kuti iwe wakafamba zvakanyanya kuburikidza neyaimbova Yugoslavia uye kunyange munguva yehondo, uye vanhu kazhinji havanzwisisi kune rumwe rutivi, kukosha kweYugoslavia nhoroondo yekutevedzana uye ruzivo rwechokwadi huripo hwesocialism. Kunyangwe Jeremy Hunt, munyori wekune dzimwe nyika weU.K. paakashanyira Slovenia - yaive imwe yemarepublic eYugoslavia - pamusangano wevatori venhau pamberi pevamwe vatungamiriri veSlovenia, akatotaura kuti Slovenia yaive yeSoviet vassal state. Uye iwe unogona zvakare unoziva muUS kuti Donald Trump akatotaura kuti Yugoslavia yakadonha muBaltic, kwete muBalkan. Saka iwe unogona kuona pane iwe waunoziva, kuvhiringidzika kwakawanda, kunyangwe nezve geography, kunyangwe Melania achibva kuSlovenia- Chaizvo, handizive kuti vangani vanhu muUS vanoziva kuti Slovenia yaive chikamu cheYugoslavia.
JS: Mumwe wevatambi veMSNBC show muUS, Joy-Ann Reid akati aive - Anobva kuSoviet Yugoslavia.
SH: Ndizvo chaizvo zviri kuitika nguva dzese. Kunyange pavanondiratidza vanoti, โHaiwa, muzivi wokuSoviet Yugoslavia.โ Izvo zvinotiunza zvakananga mukati, kudzokera kumubvunzo wako, nekuti ini ndinofunga chiitiko cheYugoslavia chaive chakakosha chaizvo nekuti yanga isiri Soviet. Iwe unoziva, kusikwa kwesocialism chaiyo iripo kwakaitika mushure mekunge Tito ambozorora naStalin uye aisada kutevedzera mitemo yeComintern. Zvawaifanira kudzoka kumubvunzo wako mumakore ekuma90, mushure mekuputsika kweYugoslavia ichokwadi kudzima kwenhoroondo, kwakaitika nenzira dzakasiyana mumatunhu akasiyana eYugoslavia.
MuCroatia, zvinosuruvarisa, kune rumwe rutivi, zvakatora fomu yavakanga vachidzinga chaizvo, vachisiya mabhuku kubva kuzvikoro zvakabatana neMarx kuEngels uye zvichingodaro, asiwo kuna Dostoevsky, kana Tolstoy. Mazhinji emabhuku andinawo nhasi paraibhurari yangu yekumba, akachengetwa nemagypsies, akatengeswa mumisika yemisika, uye zvichingodaro, uye ndakazvitenga, zvichingodaro. Asi imwe yakawedzera, ndingati zvinoshungurudza mhedzisiro yaive kuparadzwa kweanopokana-fascist monuments. Zvinopfuura zviuru zvezviyeuchidzo zvakaparadzwa muCroatia, iyo yakanga iri nhanho yemaune yekudzima nhoroondo yePatisan kurwisana uye zvakanaka, ndingati, chirongwa chikuru chemazuva ano, chakaitika muno muYugoslavia.
Mamiriro ezvinhu aya, ndingati, kwete kungonanga kuCroatia. Zvinonakidza chaizvo kuona kuti rudzi urwu rwenhoroondo revisionism, izvo chaizvoizvo kushandura vakakundwa muHondo Yenyika Yechipiri kune avo vakabudirira kukunda, izvo zvechokwadi, zvenhema, asi unogona kuona kuti chiitiko ichi chiri kuitika mune dzakawanda post. nyika dze communist. Kana iwe ukaenda kuPoland, kana ukaenda kuHungary, sekuHungary, iyo Gyรถrgy Lukรกcs archive yakavharwa, iyo yandinofunga kuti inyaya huru. Zvino muPoland, hongu, une uku kusimuka kwemasimba echiKristu anochengetedza akabatana nekubvisa pamuviri uye zvichingodaro. Sezvinoita kuUnited States, une rudzi urwu rwenganonyorwa yeHandmaid's Tale iri kuitika, muPoland, muU.S., munyika idzi zvakare. Uye chaizvo mhedziso yangu yeizvi ndeyekuti, nei iyi nhoroondo yekudzokorora ichibudirira zvakanyanya munyika dzepashure-komunisiti?
Ndingataura chaizvo nekuti iyo inonzi nguva yeshanduko, sekudana kwavanoidaidza muzvikamu zvedzidzo, shanduko zvichireva kuti shanduko kubva kucommunism kuenda ku capitalism haina kubudirira. Hazvina kubudirira nekuti ukatarisa nyika idzi โ Croatia, Serbia, tisingarevi Bosnia, kana Kosovo โ unoona kuti nyika idzi dziri semi-dependent peripheries of the European Union, idzo dziri mumhando yehukoloni. Makambani eGerman, French, Italian anonyanya kuva nemakambani ese, ayo aimbove ehurumende, zvivakwa, kubva kumabhangi kuenda kune zvinzvimbo, zvichingodaro.
Uye zvino mubvunzo ndewekuti iwe une chero rudzi rwehuchangamire. Uye kana iwe usina chero rudzi rwehuchangamire, izvo zviri izvo kwete munyika idzi chete, asi wakazviona nezviitiko zvakatevedzana muGreece, kana iwe usina hutongi hwechokwadi, saka mhinduro ndeye. kazhinji nhoroondo revisionism zvinoreva kuvaka rudzi rwekuzivikanwa mupfungwa yeAmerica kutanga, Croatia kutanga, chero kutanga. Asi rudzi urwu rwekuzivikanwa kwemanyepo kwehunhu hwenyika, hwandinofunga muzana ramakore rechi21 ipfungwa ine dambudziko rakapihwa kuti iyo pfungwa yehuchangamire ichachinja zvachose mumakumi emakore anotevera.
JS: Ndakanga ndichangobva kuBelgrade, kuSerbia uye Mutungamiriri weSerbia Aleksandar Vucic akanga ari gurukota remashoko raSlobodan Miloลกevic munguva yekupera kwema1990 uye panguva yekubhomba kweYugoslavia pamusoro peKosovo. Iwe ikozvino Serbia iri kuyedza kufunga kuti ndeipi nzira yaichazvitungamira. Russia yakawedzera mari yayo muSerbia. Iwe zvakare une Emirates iri kuuya kuSerbia. Ipapo iwe une Croatia, inova rudzi rweneo-liberal rump nhengo yeEuropean Union. Uye zvinoita sekunge munzvimbo dzeyaichimbova Yugoslavia, une masimba akafanana akaitika kune dzimwe nyika dzeEurope panguva yekudonha kweYugoslavia, uko ivo vari kuedza kufunga kuti ndiani achave muchengeti. Uye ipapo Bosnia inongoramba ichirangwa mune zvehupfumi sevanhu uye iri mune yakashata mamiriro ehupfumi uye maBosnia anenge asina mukana. Yaimbove muCroatia, waiona vazhinji veBosnia vachishanda muCroatia. Iye zvino Croatia inhengo yeEU, iwe unoona izvo zvishoma uye zvishoma asi taura nezvemamiriro enyika idzi dzeyaimbova Yugoslavia uye geopolitical mitambo iri kutamba.
SH: Ndingati maBalkan uye ex-Yugoslavia iyi chikamu cheEurope iri geopolitically kuva imwe yeanonyanya kufadza, ndingati, nzvimbo kune avo vanongoitevera. Asi kune avo vanogara pano, mamiriro acho ari kunetsa zvakanyanya, ndingati, nekuti iwe unogona kuona maitiro akasiyana munyika dzakasiyana. Uye zvechokwadi, ikozvino tine miganhu mitsva. Dzimwe nyika dziri chikamu cheEuropean Union seSlovenia, Croatia, saka, munoziva, European Union inotumira Frontex, iyo iuto rinotarisana nevapoteri uye rinodzivirira miganhu yekunze. Saka iri kutumira Frontex pakati peCroatia neBosnia, iyo inobva yagadzira kupatsanura kwakatokura.
Asi chandinonyanya kufarira iSerbia. Ndakapedza nguva yakawanda muSerbia, ndine shamwari dzakawanda ikoko, ndinoishanyira kakawanda. MuSerbia, unogona kuona nenzira ipi, iwe unogona kuona kukundikana kweEuropean Union, kune rumwe rutivi. Kutadza mupfungwa yekuti European Union haichanyanyi kukwezva kuwana nyika makore gumi apfuura, ndinofunga munhu wese muSerbia angadai akada kupinda muEuropean Union. Kana ukaendako nhasi, hapasisina shungu nazvo. Panzvimbo paizvozvo, sezvawataura, une guta guru reRussia, simba reRussia.
Vladimir Putin nguva pfupi yadarika, gore rapfuura akashanyira Belgrade. Paiva nevanhu 100,000 vakamumirira, izvo zvaive, zvechokwadi, mutambo wemitambo waVucic, uyo aibhadhara vanhu, akavabhadhara matikiti ebhazi kubva kumisha muSerbia, uye zvichingodaro uye masangweji, chaizvo saizvozvi kuuya kuBelgrade. Saka, unogona kufungidzira kuti rudzii rwemamiriro ezvinhu akaomarara vagari veSerbia vanogara mumisha iyi nekuti kazhinji havana mukana wekuuya kuBelgrade. Asi Putin akaita izvi nechikonzero chaicho, icho chinonzi Nord Stream. Saka Nord Stream mupfungwa yekuti iwe unogona kuona kuti Europe iri pakati pehondo itsva yesimba pakati peUnited States neRussia. Iwe unoziva, ndiani achapa gasi rechisikigo kuEurope? Ichava maRussia here kana kuti ichave iyo U.S.? Uye iwe uchaona zvakare muGermany, ndaigara mwedzi miviri yekupedzisira muGermany. Ndakatevera nharo dzaivepo. Pane gakava guru zvakare pamusoro pemubvunzo iwoyo chaiwo.
Saka, kudzokera kuSerbia. Saka kune rumwe rutivi, unogona kuona simba reRussia, iro rakabatana negasi rechisikigo. Kune rimwe divi, Belgrade seguta iri kuchinja zvachose. Iri kushanduka kuita Dubai nyowani. Une skyscrapers. Iwe une United Arab Emirates inovaka izvi zvisina musoro, mapurojekiti akashata muBelgrade. Uye ipapo, hongu, une China. Uye kutaura nezve China, zvinova zvinofadza chaizvo nenzira ipi, China iri kunyatso kushandisa kutadza uye kusagona zvachose kweEuropean kunze kwenyika mutemo nekuti hapana chinhu chakadai seEuropean kunze kwenyika sezvauri kuona. Kune rumwe rutivi une Angela Merkel achipa hurukuro kuHarvard, achitsoropodza Trump, kunyange zvazvo asina kumutumidza nezita, asi isu tinoziva. Uye kune rumwe rutivi, iwe une mhuri yehumambo muLondon, ichikwazisa Trump seyakaipa yeTerry Gilliam, Brazil movie kana chimwe chinhu chakadaro.
Saka kusagona kweEurope kana zvasvika kune yekune dzimwe nyika yakagadzira nzvimbo yakavhurika muBalkan kune zvakasiyana zvematongerwo enyika. NeChina zvinonakidza kuti ndingati, ichi ndicho chimwe chezvirongwa zvikuru zvekutanga zvezana ramakore rechi21, chirongwa cheOne Belt One Road, kuvaka njanji inomhanya kubva kuChina kuenda kuEurope. Tinofanira kudzokera shure. Nenzira iyo mutemo wekune dzimwe nyika weEurope asiwo mutemo wehupfumi wakagadzira mukana wekuti China ifambe nenzira huru iyi muEurope, ichivaka zvivakwa.
Uye kana iwe ukadzokera kuGreece ku2015, yaive yakakosha kukurumidza, nekuti 61 muzana yevagari veGreek vakavhota "oxi" [kwete] pareferendamu. Vakavhota vachipokana nemaitiro ekuomesera, ayo akatemerwa nemasangano eEuropean, European Central Bank, nemamwe, inova iyi mutsara wepamutemo weEurope: unoziva kuti, iwe unoda kuomesesa kwakawanda, unofanirwa kutengesa midziyo yako yeruzhinji - nhandare dzako dzendege, zviteshi zvenyu. Uye zvino zvakaitika ndezvekuti, hurumende yeGreece yeSyriza yakamanikidzwa kutengesa Port of Piraeus muGreece, inova imwe yezviteshi zvakanyanya muGungwa reMediterranean, kune kambani yeChina inonzi COSCO.
Uye maChinese - aive 2015 - maChinese panguva ino, hongu, kana iwe ukatarisa pamepu, kana iwe uchigona kuona mepu, saka une Greece zvishoma pasi ipapo. Zvavanoda kuita iye zvino ndezvikepe, vachatakura zvinhu, uye vari kutozviita zvakananga kuchiteshi chePiraeus, ipapo njanji ichakwira kuMacedonia, zvino ichaenda kuBulgaria kuSerbia. Mutungamiri weChinese aive muSerbia gore rapfuura, uye vakaita chibvumirano pamwe naVucic naViktor Orban, zvinoreva kuti vatove muchirongwa, ndinofunga, chekuvaka njanji itsva, kubva kuBelgrade kuenda kuBudapest -
JS: Uye ndedzipi mhedzisiro yenjanji iyi iyo China iri kuisa pasi mushure mekupinzwa kwehupfumi hweGreek kana kumanikidzwa kupinza hupfumi hweGreek?
SH: Zvakanaka, ndinofunga mhedzisiro yacho yakakura chaizvo. Ndinoreva, ikozvino, nhasi, hazvibviri kudzivirira zvigadzirwa zveChinese chero kupi. Asi zvavachaita ndizvo zvavakaziva, zvakaonekwa neChina ndezvekuti kutakurwa kwezvinhu nengarava kwakangononoka. Uye dzimwe nguva iwe zvakare une dambudziko nemakororo eSomalia uye zvichingodaro. Handizive kana vachiri kushanda, asi zvinongononoka. Uye nguva imari sekutaura kunoita mantra yecapitalism, uye vanoona kuti kana vakakwanisa kutakura zvigadzirwa kubva kuBeijing kuti titi, Hamburg mumavhiki maviri, zvinovaunza kune yakatokura geopolitical simba. Zvazvinoreva kuBalkans uye kune ramangwana reEuropean Union, ndichazviisa seizvi: Sei isiri iyo Europe pachayo, iyo iri kuisa mari mumapurojekiti makuru ezvivakwa? Sei Europe isiri kuvaka njanji zvitima? Wanga uchiziva here kuti China inovaka gore rega rega mamwe manjanji echitima anokurumidza kupfuura ane Germany zvachose? Unoziva
JS: Isu hatina muUnited States, Srecko. Hatina zvitima zvekumhanya zvakanyanya munyika muno.
SH: Ehe, asi iwe unayo, iwe uchave neHyperloop uye zvese izvi shiti. Ndinoreva, ndiri kutamba. Asi hongu, ndoziva, zvinoita sekunge munhu wekuEurope achinyunyuta kwauri iwe usina. Asi rega ndikuudze anecdote. Rimwe gore rapfuura, kana panguva ino, rwendo rwekubva kuZagreb kuenda kuBelgrade nechitima rwava kutora maawa manomwe kana masere. Zvakafanana nemakiromita 350-400. Uye maererano nedheta yandakawana, rwendo urwu panguva yeumambo hweAustria-Hungary, iyo yaiva, iwe unoziva, nguva yakawanda yapfuura, yakatora nguva shoma kupfuura nhasi. Saka iwe unogona kuona kuti zvivakwa zvakaparadzwa zvachose. Yakaparadzwa, hongu, nekuda kwehuori, nekuda kwekuoma uye nezvimwe zvakadaro.
Uye kune chitima cheChinese, rwendo urwu runotora awa imwe chete, zvichida, asi pane dambudziko, hongu. Iwe unoziva, pane dambudziko rekuti magadzirirwo anogadzirwa nemaChinese nderekuti, idzi njanji, sekuziva kwangu, pamwe ndakanganisa, haizoshandiswe zvakanyanya pakufamba kwevafambi, asi kunyanya kutakura vanhu. zvinhu.
Asi kuti udzoke kuEurope, iwe unoziva, zvaunogona kuona pano nezvose izvi zvatakataura nezvazvo, Serbia mumamiriro ezvinhu aya, Croatia mumamiriro ezvinhu aya, tisingatauri, iwe unoziva, Austria, chii chiri kuitika ikoko. Kuchaitwa sarudzo dzechimbi-chimbi munaGunyana. Ikozvino kwave nesarudzo dzechimbi-chimbi muGreece, New Democracy ichikwira mwedzi uno. Iwe unogona kuona kuti Europe iri mudambudziko rakadzika. Europe iri uye haisiriyo, munoziva, rudzi urwu rwedambudziko rekuzivikanwa, ndinofunga idambudziko rakakura remukati uye dambudziko rakakura rezvematongerwo enyika. Uye nepo Europe iri mudambudziko iri, kusakwanisa kuwana nzira yakafanana yezvematongerwo enyika, iyo ichatevera, uye yainofanira kutevera. Iri kurasikirwa pasi, ndingati, kune vamwe vatambi kuChina, Russia, maArabu, zvichingodaro, uye kunyangwe iyo U.S. Unogona kuzviona nekushanya kwaTrump kuU.K.
Saka, une Europe iyo isina kubatana zvakare. Iwe une Europe, iyo iri kupa iyo yayo yega zvivakwa pachinzvimbo chekudyara muzvivakwa. Iwe une Europe iyo zvichida kubva kuAmerican point of view, Europe ichiri kutaridzika seParis mumabhaisikopo, Roma uye ese aya marudzi eutopian bullshit nezveEurope. Asi mamiriro ezvinhu pano ari kunyanya kunetseka. Uye izvo zvinoitika muEurope zvichave nemhedzisiro yakadzama kuUS zvichienda mberi, sezvazvaigara zvakaita kune dzimwe nyika. Usakanganwa kuti hondo mbiri dzenyika dzakatanga muEurope, kuti mu90s, takave nekuparara kweYugoslavia, iyo zvakare, sezvatinoona iye zvino inewo migumisiro kune imwe nyika yeEurope.
JS: Ehe, wanga uine murume wekuSerbia, Gavrilo Princip, uyo, iwe unoziva, nhoroondo inoti, pakupedzisira, kuedza kwake kuuraya Archduke Franz Ferdinand nemurongo wake, chaive chiitiko chekukurudzira Hondo Yenyika I uyezve, newewo. vane Yugoslavia kubuda nenzira yakakomba zvikuru munhoroondo muHondo Yenyika II. Uye chikamu chechikonzero nei ndaida kutaura newe imhaka yekuti une bhuku idzva iri kunze "Nhetembo Kubva Kumberi" iyo yandinokurudzira kuti vanhu vatore uye vaverenge. Uye mariri munotaura nezveukoshi hwezvakazozivikanwa seMapato ekutanga nzanga itsva uye kubatana pamwe chete aya marepublic matanhatu munyika ino, Yugoslavia.
Uye iwe unonyora, "Panzvimbo yekuve vakabatwa nemamiriro avo enhoroondo, vanhu veYugoslavia vakavabata uye vakavashandura kuti vazvinakire ivo. Kubva kumakomo eBosnia, Herzegovina neMontenegro kuburikidza nemasango eSlovenia, Croatia neSerbia, uye pakupedzisira paChitsuwa cheVis, kurwisana nehondo yehugandanga nevaNazi vakawanda nevaFascist kusanganisira vashandi veko, Ustaลกe neChetniks. MaPartisan akabudirira kwete chete mukusunungura nharaunda yeYugoslavia, asi mukutanga nzanga itsva yakavakirwa pahondo yechimurenga. Tisati tataura pamusoro pechivako ichocho mushure mehondo, tsanangura kune vanhu vasingazivi nhoroondo iyi kukosha kwaJosip Broz Tito, anozivikanwa saMarshal Tito, uye mauto ePartisan akakunda kukunda maNazi neItaly fascists.
SH: Mubvunzo mukuru uye ndinofunga kuti chiitiko chekuedza cheYugoslavia chine zvidzidzo zvakawanda zvemamiriro edu nhasi. Saka regai nditange ndataura kuti handisi munhu asingafungi. Ini ndiri munhu anotsoropodza, panguva imwechete yechiitiko cheYugoslavia nekuda kwezvikonzero zvakasiyana zvatinogona kutaura nezvazvo. Panguva imwecheteyo, ndinofunga, chaizvo kutevedzana kwenhoroondo kubva muHondo Yenyika yechipiri yakakosha nhasi, nekuti inoratidza zvinhu zvakawanda. Chokutanga pane zvose, kuti unzwisise zviri nani, unofanirwa kufungidzira mepu yeEurope ine ruvara rutsvuku, uye ruvara rutsvuku runomiririra maNazi akatora nyika. Uye kana iwe ukatarisa kuEurope muma'40s, kutanga kwe'40s, semuenzaniso, yezana ramakore rapfuura, uchaona kuti yakawanda yeEurope yakatsvuka. Kwete tsvuku mupfungwa yecommunism, asi inogarwa nevaNazi.
Uye ex-Yugoslavia, panguva iyoyo, yaive Yugoslavia, asi isati iri yesocialist, yakanga yakagarwa zvakare. Iwe waive nehutongi hwezvipopi muCroatia. Maiva nevabatsiri muSerbia uye mumamiriro ezvinhu aya, maiva neboka remagandanga rechikomunisti. Chaizvoizvo, rainyatsove sangano remagandanga, kunyangwe mabhunu asati atanga kufamba muLatin America, zvichingodaro. Nokuti nzvimbo iri muYugoslavia izere nemakomo, nzizi, zvitsuwa, zvichingodaro. Uye maYugoslav Partisans aitungamirwa naTito nevamwe vazhinji, zvakare vakadzi, ndivo vaive vega bato rekuramba randingati muEurope. Taive nemaitiro ekupikisa sezvatinoziva, kuramba muFrance. Isu taive neGreek kurambana uye zvichingodaro asi ini ndaizoti maYugoslav Partisans ndivo chete vakabudirira kushandisa mamiriro ehondo uye basa rakazara kuitira kugadzira shanduko yemagariro, munoziva. Yakanga isiri iyo, o, takabuda muhondo uye ipapo zvinhu zvose zvinofanira kuchinja kuitira kuti zvinhu zvose zvirambe zvakafanana, sekutaura kwaLampedusa.
Pano, hazvina kudaro. Kwakanga kusiri kungoenderera mberi kwerudzi rwakasununguka rwehurongwa. Kwaiva kuedza kushandura zvikuru nzanga. Uye iwe wakataura Gavrilo Princip, uyo ndiye akapfura Franz Ferdinand. Vanhu vanoti ndiye ane mhosva yehondo yenyika yekutanga. Zvakanaka, panguva iyo Gavrilo Princip akaenda, uku ndiko kutanga kwezana remakore rechi20. Panguva iyoyo, 95 muzana yevanhu veBosnia Gavrilo Princip vakabva - ndinoreva kuti akanga aripo - 95 muzana yevanhu muBosnia vakanga vasina kuverenga.
Iye zvino, mamiriro acho ezvinhu akasiyana zvachose. Iwe unoziva, nekuda kwepurojekiti yemazuva ano yeYugoslavia, yawakanga uchiziva, kuvaka migwagwa, chivako chekuvaka, iwe unoziva, muMoMA, museum muNew York munguva pfupi yapfuura yakanga ine chiratidziro, yakanaka chaizvo inonzi Concrete Utopia, pamusoro peYugoslavia architecture. Uye zvinosuruvarisa chaizvo kuti muno muCroatia, muSerbia, uye zvichingodaro zvivakwa izvi zvinoyevedza zvinoita senge ngano dzesainzi, zvakaparadzwa, zvaparadzwa, hapana ane hanya nazvo. Uye zvakare une Museum of Modern Art muNew York, iyo iri kutiratidza rudzi rwezvivakwa zvataive nazvo. Saka yaive yezvivakwa, yaive purojekiti yemazuva ano, iyo yaisanganisira zvikamu zvese zvehupenyu.
Uye zvakanaka, ndaigona kutaura zvakawanda pamusoro pazvo, asi regai ndingotaura kuti kana pane zvidzidzo zvitatu zvechiitiko cheYugoslavia, ndingati yekutanga - zvidzidzo zvitatu zverima redu, dystopian nguva nhasi - chidzidzo chekutanga chinopesana nefascism. uye nenzira ipi iwe unogona chaizvo kutungamira kurwa kwakabudirira kurwisa fascism. Pano zvakakoshawo kudoma nhaurirano dzese dzakaitika pakati paTito naFitzroy Maclean - kune rumwe rutivi uyo aive kurudziro yechokwadi yehunhu hwaJames Bond, uye aive achirwa pamwe chete nemaPartisan kubva kuBosnia kuenda kuchitsuwa cheVis. - naWinston Churchill wandisingawani hunhu hwakanaka kwazvo munhoroondo. Asi, uye ndicho chidzidzo chikuru chandingati, Winston Churchill akaona kuti nzira chete yekukunda Hondo Yenyika yechipiri ndeyekuita mubatanidzwa kunyangwe neavo vaaishora zvakanyanya, vanova maKomonisiti, asi akazviita nekuti nezvikonzero zvine musoro. .
Uye ini ndinofunga izvi, iwe unoziva, kukundikana nhasi kwaunogona kuona kuti yakasununguka kugadzwa, iyo inonzi nzvimbo yezvematongerwo enyika inotya kwazvo mibatanidzwa neruboshwe. Panzvimbo pekuita mibatanidzwa nekuruboshwe, ivo vari kuita zvese kuti vaderedze kuruboshwe. Yugoslavia chidzidzo chakanaka, ndingati, kuratidza kuti kana tichida chaizvo kubuda mune ino yemazuva ano ine ngozi zvikuru mamiriro ezvematongerwo enyika, isu tichada mamwe mibatanidzwa mitsva, kunyangwe ingori tactical.
Chidzidzo chechipiri - saka, chidzidzo chekutanga anti-fascism uye nzira ipi yekukunda fascism. Chidzidzo chechipiri kuzvitungamirira. Ichi ndicho chikonzero ndinogumbuka zvikuru apo vanhu vose ava vanotaura nezveSoviet Yugoslavia. Musiyano mukuru waiva chaizvo zvakaitwa naTito muna 1948, ndezvokuti paakaputsa naStalin uye Comintern, ndechokuti akaunza chirongwa chekuzvitonga icho mukuita zvakanaka, hazvina kunyatsoshanda asi pfungwa yacho yakanga yakanaka. Pfungwa yaive yekuti iyo surplus value yebasa rakaitwa nevashandi yaisaenda, munoziva, kune mamaneja uye kune vemabhangi zvichingodaro asi vaizodzokera uye ivo vaigona kusarudza nezveramangwana ravo. Saka, haisi democracy chete. Yaifanira kunge iri democracy yehupfumi.
Nezvikonzero zvakasiyana izvo hazvina kubudirira. Tinogona kutaura nezvazvo zvakare asi ndinofunga nhasi ipfungwa yakakosha zvakare kwaunoziva, maneja mukambani seCEO ane muhoro wakakura zvakapetwa ka400 kana chiuru pane mushandi mukambani imwe chete uye izvi ndizvo zvakatanga naMargaret. Thatcher naRonald Regan, maitiro aya muma'1,000s zvichingodaro.
JS: Usati waenda kune wechitatu, ini ndinongodawo kugovera chokwadi chimwe chete chandakagara ndichiwana chinoshamisa nezve nyaya yeYugoslavia uye kuti apo Yugoslavia yaivepo uye ivo vaiyedza nemidziyo yemagariro, nzira yakajairika iyo. vashandi vakawana imba muYugoslavia kuburikidza nebasa ravo. Nenzira imwechete iyo vanhu vekuAmerica vanovimba nevashandirwi vehutano, inova hurongwa hwakaipa, muYugoslavia, nzira iyo vanhu vazhinji vakapedza kudzidza kubva pakugara nevabereki vavo, munoziva, nemhuri dzavo diki kufurati yavo ndeyekuti vaizowana mari. imba kuburikidza nebasa ravo. Uye ndiyo yakanga iri nzira yaizivikanwa zvikuru iyo vanhu vakanga vachiwana nayo nzvimbo yokugara, handiti?
SH: Ehe, ndatenda neizvi nekuti ndinofunga iri kuitawo musoro wakakodzera nhasi. Iwe unoziva, ndichangodzoka kubva kuBerlin uye muBerlin, kune, semumaguta ese eEurope, kune dambudziko rakakura redzimba, iro kune rimwe divi, mhedzisiro ye monopoly capitalism. Iwe unoziva, makambani makuru anotenga akawanda mafurati muguta uye ipapo mitengo iri kukwira uye kune rumwe rutivi, mhedzisiro yeinonzi chikuva capitalism zvinoreva Airbnb-ization yezvese. Izvo iwe zvaunoziva kuisa zviri nyore kwazvo, zvinoreva kuti kana mudzidzi anobva mumusha mudiki wechiCroatia kana weSpanish achida kuuya kuBarcelona kana kuZagreb, mutengo, munhu wese, zvakaoma chaizvo kuwana kunyange furati yekugara pakati. guta nekuti rinobatsira zvakanyanya kuhaya imba kuAirbnb uye idambudziko hombe.
MuBerlin, vaive nedambudziko zvekuti imwe kambani ichangoburwa, imwe kambani yakabudirira kuva nemafurati anopfuura zviuru zvitatu muBerlin uye zvakachinja zvachose musika wese wedzimba muBerlin. Nekuti kana iwe uine zviuru zvitatu zvemafurati, zvakanyanya, iwe ndiwe unogona kusarudza pamitengo. Inonzi monopoly capitalism. MuYugoslavia, uye saizvozvi taiva nedzimba dzokugarisana. Kwete izvozvo chete zvinogona kukushamisa nekuti zvichanzwika senhau dzenhema sekunge ndini ndakazvigadzira izvozvi asi huya kuCroatia Coast, iwe uchaziva, iwe wakamboenda kuCroatia Coast. Iwe uchaona kunyangwe mahotera uko vashandi vaizoenda kuzororo izvo zvaive chikamu chekondirakiti yavo.
JS: Chikamu chezvandinofunga kuti chinonakidza, kupa mienzaniso yekongiri yatiri kutaura nezvayo pano imhaka yekuti ipfungwa yekune dzimwe nyika kune vanhu vari muUnited States, asi zhizha rapfuura ndaiva mumusha mudiki paAdriatic Coast kunze kwe. guta reZadar uye ini ndakaona izvi zvakasiiwa, izvo zvaiita senge nhevedzano yeakanaka mabungalows uye ichaputswa pasi uye pachava nepamusoro-soro condos kana hotera yakaiswa ipapo pamwe nemari yeTurkey. Mazhinji emakambani eTurkey ave kuisa mari pamhenderekedzo yeAdriatic. Asi izvo zvaive pasi peYugoslavia mabungalow ezhizha evashandi veposvo kubva kumativi ese eYugoslavia. Vaive nekodzero yekuendako pazororo gore rega rega uye yaive nhevedzano yemabungalows chete kuti vashandi veposvo vatore nguva yavo yekuzorora.
SH: Hongu, asi ndizvo chaizvo izvo chinhu chinonakidza. Ndinofunga kuti vazhinji vevanhu vari kutiteerera iye zvino vachafunga kuti takabva kumakomunisti apfuura, munoziva, rudzi urwu rwedhipatimendi rekuparadzira, asi hazvisi. Iwe unoziva, iwe unoenda kune ini ndinoreva, ini handizive kana yakavhurika asi iyo Concrete Utopia kuratidzwa kuMuseum of Modern Art muNew York inoratidzawo mahotera aya sebungalows, zvichingodaro. Uye kunze kwekungopa vanhu vese ava, vashandi mukana wekuenda kuzororo pamhenderekedzo yegungwa, munoziva, iniwo ndinofunga, yaive yakakosha pakusiyana uye kuchinjana pakati penyika dzakasiyana dzeYugoslavia, nekuti ndinofunga chaizvo, munoziva. , Europe yaive kana ichine chirongwa ichi cheErasmus, chinonyanya kuitirwa vadzidzi vanozowana bhezari rekutenderera Europe. Asi ini ndinofunga chatinoda nhasi imhando yepasirese Erasmus, munoziva. Zvakadini kana semuenzaniso, mushandi wetsamba weBritish angaenda kuCroatia uye mushandi weposvo weCroatia angaenda kuLondon uye pachava nehurongwa hwakarongeka hwekutsinhana nezvimwe zvakadaro? Ndingati iwe uchaona pakarepo kudonha kwekurudyi-bapiro populism uye zvichingodaro nekuti vazhinji vevanhu havangofambi iro idambudziko guru.
Ehe, nekushanduka kwemamiriro ekunze uye nedambudziko remamiriro ekunze, tinogona zvakare kubvunza mimwe mibvunzo kana vanhu vachifanira kufamba zvakanyanya. Wataura nezve tourism. Dambudziko guru renyika idzi dziri kunharaunda yeEuropean Union - Spain, Portugal, Greece, Croatia inosanganisirwa - ndeyekushanya. Nei riri dambudziko? Iri dambudziko nekuti - ini ndichakupa chete nhamba dzeCroatia - Croatia neMalta ndidzo nyika mbiri dzepamusoro pasirese kana zvasvika kune chikamu cheGDP chekushanya. KuCroatia, ndinofunga kuti yadarika gumi nemasere muzana ikozvino zvinoreva kuti iwe une hupfumi hunoenderana nekushanya.
Uye iwe unoziva, kana iwe uchinyatsovimba nekushanya, saka iwe zvakare unoenderana nemamiriro ekunze, semuenzaniso kana kana imwe geopolitical mamiriro akachinja kana uine kurwisa kwehugandanga sekuTunisia semuenzaniso, zvese zvinogona kuchinja uyezve hapana 18 muzana reGDP zvakare uye hapachina indasitiri zvakare nekuti isu hatisisina indasitiri zvakare mushure meinonzi nguva yekuchinja kubva kucommunism kuenda ku capitalism. Iri idambudziko guru.
Zvakafanana nemamiriro ezvinhu e-semi-colonial matiri pano nhasi uye tisingarevi zvakare mutengo wemamiriro ekunze nenzira iyo iri kuparadza mahombekombe, nenzira iyo iri kuparadza nharaunda diki, dzaitsamira pakuredza, semuenzaniso. Iye zvino, vanotsamira paAirbnb.
JS: Iwe unoziva, Woody Guthrie paakanyora uye achiimba, "Nyika ino inyika yako," munoziva, munhu wese weAmerica anoziva chikamu cherwiyo irworwo nekuti rinoshandiswa mauri unoziva, kushambadzira, uye chave chikamu chepop tsika. Asi kana ukachera pasi mune mamwe mavhesi ayo, ane mutsara waanotaura nezvechiratidzo padivi penzira uye rimwe divi rakati pfuma yega. Uye rimwe divi racho rakanga risina chinhu. Uye anoti ivhu rakagadzirirwa iwe neni zvichireva kuti, unoziva, aipikisa pfungwa yepfuma yega. Uye muCroatia izvozvi, imwe yenhau hombe dzezvematongerwo enyika ndizvo zvauri kutaura nezvazvo kuti une kutsamira pakushanya, une iyi inoyevedza nharaunda yemahombekombe uye ndizvo. Zvinoshamisa. Chero ani akamboenda kuCroatia achakuudza kuti inoshamisa kwazvo. Uye chii chiri -
SH: Usataure izvozvo. Kutowanda vanhu vachauya -
JS: Rutivi rwakasiyana rweizvi nderwokuti zvinhu zvikuru zveyaimbova Yugoslavia yaiva pfungwa yokuti mhenderekedzo yegungwa haisi yomunhu. Ndezvemunhu wese. Uye hongu, iwe waive nehuwori hwehurumende hunosanganisira pasi paTito uye wanga uine zvitsuwa zvakavanzika uye zvese izvo asi kazhinji, nzvimbo dzemahombekombe eYugoslavia dzaionekwa sechinhu chakajairika chinogona kushandiswa nemunhu wese. Uye zvino, mune aya mahombe ehotera conglomerates, mune vatengesi vekunze vari kuuya. Uye vari kuti kwete, tinoda kukwanisa kuva nemhenderekedzo yepamhenderekedzo yegungwa, nokuti mutemo uripo unobvumira chero munhu kuenda kunyange kufive star resort's. inonzi private beach, uye vanogona kuti, Ndine kodzero yekuisa tauro rangu pedyo nemacheya ako akanaka. Ndinogona kugara pamhenderekedzo yegungwa iyi nekuti ndeyevanhu. Zvakanaka ikozvino, izvo zvinogona kuchinja uye ndezvezvikonzero chaizvo zvauri kutaura nezvazvo. Ndiyo privatization. Iko kutsamira pakushanya uyezve ine hasha vatengesi vekune dzimwe nyika vanoshanda nevane huwori vebhizinesi vekuCroatia kuti vadzorerwe hupfumi hwemahombekombe ari evanhu.
SH: Hongu, wakazvitsanangura sezvazviri. Ndingati zvakatonyanya kuipa. Kuti, hongu, zvirokwazvo une privatization yemahombekombe. Kureva kuti takanga tatova nemaitiro aya. Iwe unoziva, zvinhu zvekutanga zvakavharirwa mushure, panguva chaiyo, kuparara kweYugoslavia kwaive semuenzaniso matsime emvura. Coca-Cola yakatenga zvitubu zvemvura zvakati wandei muBosnia neCroatia zvichingodaro, mu'90s apo hondo yakanga ichiri kuitika, iyo yaive chaiyo iyi dzidziso yekuvhundutsa - izvo Naomi Klein anotaura nezvazvo, mupfungwa yekuti une mamiriro. yekuvhundutsa kwehondo uyezve iwe unotengesa, vezvematongerwo enyika veCroatia vane huori pamwe nevezvematongerwo enyika vane huori vekuMadokero vanoita zvibvumirano zvekutengesa zviwanikwa.
Uye izvi, zviri kuitika iye zvino kumahombekombe ndiwo mugumisiro unonzwisisika wazvo. Asi nei ndichitaura kuti zvakatonyanya kuipa, zvakatonyanya kuipa nekuti chaizvo muCroatia, unogona kuona matambudziko ese epasi rose. Kune rumwe rutivi, iwe unoziva, isu tinofara kuti isu takabatana nenyika uye zvichingodaro. Asi idzi dzese EasyJet ndege, iyi EasyJet tsika uye zvichingodaro haisi kungobatsira chete kune dambudziko remamiriro ekunze, uye ndinofunga chaizvo, vanhu vanofanirwa kufamba zvakanyanya nechitima, asi hapana inoshanda chitima hurongwa muCroatia nekuti Europe haina kana Croatia haina. 'Ita mari mairi uye zvichingodaro. Saka tiri kuvhura zvakare matambudziko mamwe chete atinawo.
Asi haisi EasyJet chete. Ini handizive, unoona pamwe kuti nguva pfupi yadarika, Croatia yakavewo seti yemafirimu makuru eHollywood. Senge pandakanga ndiri muDubrovnik nguva pfupi yadarika, uye kune vazhinji veChinese uye zvakare vashanyi vekuAmerica. Chaizvoizvo, Dubrovnik iguta rinonakidza. Nhoroondo yacho inotonyanya kunakidza.
JS: Kwete, kwete, kwete, ingori King's Landing. Hapana nhoroondo. Ingori Kudzika kwaMambo, murume.
SH: Ehe, Mutambo Wezvigaro. Uye, munoziva, uye munhu wese anongoziva izvi. Uye kana iwe ukaenda kuChitsuwa cheVis, chitsuwa, icho nguva pfupi yadarika chakave seti yeakakurumbira Mamma Mia bhaisikopo. Uye, iwe unoziva, zvakanaka, unogona kutaura kuti izvi zviri kuita kuti Croatia iwedzere kufarirwa, izvo zvichave zvakanaka nekuti vanhu veko vanozorenda dzimba dzavo nezvimwe zvakadaro. Asi ichokwadi, imhando ye, ndingati, munoziva, iyo bhaisikopo rinonzi Idiocracy, munoziva, uko vanhu vanoona bhaisikopo, vobva vaenda ikoko vobva vati, oh, King's Landing, munoziva. Kwete, haisi Kungogara kwaMambo, chaizvo, ine nhoroondo yakakosha uye inonakidza kupfuura Mutambo Wezvigaro.
Asi iwe unogona kuona kuti nyika idzi imhando, kunyangwe nenzira iyoyo, mune inomiririra inomiririra, zviri zvakare, kuita rudzi rwekoloni kana seti yefirimu. Uye izvo zvakaipa, hongu, ndinoreva, zvakaipa kune tsika yemuno. Handisi kuti tinofanira kudzokera shure uye kudzokera kutsika dzeko. Ini handisi benzi. Handitendi mazviri. Asi hongu, tsika dziri kurasika. Mitauro yemunharaunda iri kurasika, tisingatauri nezvekukwira kwemitengo yezvinhu mumaguta akadai seDubrovnik kana mamwe ari pamhenderekedzo yegungwa, kunyanya nekuda kwefirimu yeHollywood, nezvimwe zvakadaro.
Uye zvino kana iwe ukaenda kuDubrovnik kana chero rimwe guta revashanyi reCroatia munguva yechando, hauzowani vanhu pakati peguta. Ikoko, maguta acho akafa, kunyange akatsemuka uye zvichingodaro. Nekuti vazhinji vevanhu vari kungoita tourism. Hapana anogara imomo pakati. Zvakafanana neVenice, semuenzaniso, tora Venice, tora tsaona ichangoburwa yakaitika nechikepe chikuru muVenice. Ndinoreva, zvinosemesa. Munoziva, budiriro yemunhu iri kuzviparadza. Handisi kupikisa tourism. Handisi kuti vanhu havafanire kufamba. Ndinofunga kuti vanofanira kufamba chaizvo kuti vasangane nedzimwe tsika. Uye vamwe vanhu vanodawo zororo nguva nenguva. Asi ini ndinofunga isu tinofanirwa kufunga zvakanyanya kushanya kwepasirese uye zvazvinoreva uye nenzira ipi inogona kusimbaradzika, ingave yakabatana sei neGreen New Deal, kune hukuru hwekudyara muzvivakwa zveveruzhinji - zvitima, mamwe marudzi ezvifambiso. Pane zvakawanda zvinofanirwa kuitwa kana tasvika pakushanya.
JS: Ndinoziva kuti tinofanirwa kusvika kuchidzidzo chako chechitatu chatinogona kutora kubva pane izvi asi chikonzero chandiri kurovera pasi uye vanhu vangafunga kuti "Ah, varume ava vari kungotaura vari mumasora," imhaka yekuti ndinofunga wataura mumwe wangu. uye shamwari Naomi Klein, uye kunyora kwake mu "Shock Doctrine." Uye chokwadi, zvakawanda zvaari kuita izvozvi zvakatarisana nedambudziko remamiriro ekunze ratiri kutarisana naro munyika ino. Uye ndinofunga kuti mune idzi neoliberal states dzakatendeuka kubva kuSocialism kana communism kuita chero zvazvave iko zvino kuti une mabhanga emarudzi akawanda. Iwe une nyika dzakasimba dzekuMadokero dzinoisa matanho ehusterity, nezvimwe, kune nyika diki inhengo nyowani dzeasiri-makomunisti kirabhu, ndeyekuti iwe unewo njodzi yemamiriro ekunze muCroatia nenzira yeiyi moto wesango kana moto unotangwa nemumwe munhu akakanda. fodya kunze uye hapana mhinduro inoshanda uye vanhu vakasara kuti zvimwe hurumende ichatumira ndege kana helikopta kuti dzimise moto wedu kana kuti zvichida tinoda kuhaya vanhu vakazvimirira kuti vaite izvi?
Ndinoreva, ichi ndicho chokwadi chatakatarisana nacho munzvimbo dzeUnited States muCalifornia uko vanhu vanofanirwa kuhaya kana kuve neinishuwarenzi kuburikidza nemakambani akazvimirira ekuti kana imba yangu ichitsva, ndichave neuto remoto rakazvimiririra. izvo zvichave nechokwadi chekudzima moto wangu kutanga, pane kumirira 911 vanotumira kuti vatumire rori yemoto. Saka, tsanangura kuti mamiriro ekunze ari kukanganisa sei Croatia zvobva zvawedzerwa nerudzi rwekumisikidzwa kwemasevhisi ehurumende kana kutsakatika kwayo uye kuenda kumhinduro yenjodzi.
SH: Muenzaniso kubva kuCalifornia wawakapa wakanaka nekuti unoratidza kuti mantra yaMargaret Thatcher ndeyechokwadi nhasi, zvinosiririsa. Iwe unoziva apo Margaret Thatcher akataura izvozvo zvine mukurumbira, kuti hakuna chinhu chakadai senzanga, vanhu chete. Uye iwe unogona kuzviona muCalifornia nedzimwe nyika uye zvichingodaro uko kwakawanda uye iwe uine yakazvimirira chikamu chinozongobatsira vanhu vakapfuma. Ndinoreva kuti zviri nyore saizvozvo.
Kana zvasvika kuEurope chaunoona chakabatana nedambudziko remamiriro ekunze hausi moto wemusango chete, semuenzaniso. Croatia, semuenzaniso, uye Croatian Coast uye zvitsuwa zvine dambudziko rakakura nemapurasitiki uye marara. Izvo zvinoenda seizvi, munoziva, ndinouya gore rega rega kune chimwe chitsuwa muCroatia uye kana ndikauya muchirimo, mahombekombe akazara epurasitiki. Uye zvino ini neshamwari dzomunharaunda - uye ndiri kuuya kuchidzidzo zvakare cheimwe yezvidzidzo zveYugoslavia, ndingati - ini neshamwari dzangu tinoenda ikoko kumahombekombe, tinochenesa gungwa, nezvimwewo. Uye zuva rinotevera chairo plastiki inodzoka.
Kana ukatarisa kubva kunobva zvigadzirwa hafu yacho ndeyeAlbania, uye mamwe maFrench kana echiGermanโsemuenzaniso weFrench kana wekuGerman michina yekurapa. Uye wobva wazvibvunza, "Zvakanaka, nei paine marara eAlbania, French neGerman pazvitsuwa zveCroatia?" Uye ipapo unofanira kuuya kunobva dambudziko iri. Uye tsime nderekuti, kune rumwe rutivi, Albania mushure mekuputsika kwehutongi hwemakomunisti ikoko, haina chaizvo hurongwa hwekugadzirisa tsvina. Kune rimwe divi - uye pano tasvika kune rimwe dambudziko repasi rose - nyika dzakapfuma dzeEuropean Union dzinosanganisira Germany, France, zvichingodaro dziri kutumira tsvina yakawanda kusanganisira michina yekurapa kuAlbania. Uye zvino kutevera mafungu egungwa, marara anobva kuAlbania, pamwe chete nemarara eAlbania uye kubva kuWestern Europe anouya kuzvitsuwa zveCroatia.
Uye chii zvino chidzidzo cheYugoslavia? Chidzidzo ndechekuti kunyangwe ndikachenesa mahombekombe egungwa zuva rega rega, zuva rinotevera mapurasitiki achauya. Kunyangwe pasina mapurasitiki pamahombekombe, isu tese tave kutodya microplastics, munoziva. Masayendisiti akawana microplastics kubva kuSwitzerland Alps kusvika kuAntarctic.
Saka, hapana nzira yekubuda nenzira iyoyo uye nzira chete yekubuda nayo uye ichi ndicho chimwe chezvidzidzo zveYugoslavia, iyo inofanira kudzokororwa zvakanyanya, ndiyo Non-Aligned Movement iyo ndiyo yaiva kufamba kwezana remakore rechi20 raive. yakavambwa naNehru, Tito, naNasser nepfungwa huru yekuti nyika dzepasirese kumaodzanyemba dzinofanirwa kushandira pamwe. Ehe, yaive mamiriro eCold War apo chikonzero chikuru chenheyo yeNon-Aligned Movement yaive yekuti haujoinhe Soviet Russia uye haujoinhe United States, asi unoedza chaizvo kugadzira a. chaiyo yechitatu sarudzo uye ndinofunga isu tinoda izvo zvakanyanya uye zvakanyanya nhasi.
Iwe wakaona pamwe munhau nguva pfupi yadarika kuti Malaysia yaidzosera tsvina iyo nyika dzekuMadokero dzaitumira kuMalaysia. Ndinofunga icho chinhu chakanaka kwazvo uye chinoratidzawo, nekuti ini ndinotevera gakava riri muUnited States. Ini ndinoremekedza Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez zvakanyanya. Kunyangwe, ndinofunga anofanira kutaura zvakawanda nezve Chelsea Manning naJulian Assange asi ndiyo imwe nyaya. Asi zvaari kuita uye ndinofunga kuti zvakanaka chaizvo kusundira mberi Green New Deal.
Asi chii chakakosha zvakare neGreen New Deal, iyo inonyanya kukanganwika - senge ikozvino pano mushure mesarudzo dzeEurope, munhu wese ari kutaura nezve inonzi green wave, munoziva, Green Party yakaita zvakanaka kwazvo, zvichingodaro. . Ichi chiratidzo chekuti Europe iri kuenda negwara riri nani. Zvakanaka, ndakura zvakakwana, kunyange zvakadaro, handina kukwegura. Asi ini ndakura zvakakwana kuyeuka kuti Green Party yakatsigira hondo muAfghanistan, nezvimwe zvakadaro, uye havana kunyatsoita zvinhu zvakawanda kune inonzi shanduko yegirini muGermany.
Saka, chidzidzo cheizvi ndechekuti kunyangwe neMalaysia kana marara ari kuuya kuAlbania uyezve kuCroatia, chidzidzo ndechekuti hapana Green New Deal munyika imwe chete uye kuti Green New Deal haifanirwe kunge iri yemagariro chete. asi anti-capitalist kana kunyanya post-capitalist. Saka haugone kuve neDeal Itsva yakasvibira muGermany, iyo ikozvino yave kuendesa kunze motokari dzedhiziri kunharaunda yeEuropean Union kuenda kuHungary, inova nyika yechipiri pasi rose yekufa nguva isati yakwana nekuda kwekusvibiswa kwemhepo.
Saka, iwe unoziva, iwe unogona kufungidzira rudzi rwenyika inofanana nesainzi ngano kubva kuChina ikozvino, iyo yandinofunga kuti ndeimwe yeakanakisa, iwe unoziva, inonakidza sainzi ngano uko iwe une nyika iyo yakakamurwa zvakanyanya. Iwe une nyika umo vanhu vanonakidzwa nemhepo yakanaka, iwe unoziva, jecha uye zvichingodaro pamahombekombe, uye une nyika dziri kunyura chaiko mumarara. Uye ndinofunga izvo zvakakosha neGreen New Deal nekuti ini ndinoona njodzi mbiri dzeGreen New Deal. Imwe njodzi yeGreen New Deal ndeyekuti inogona kukurumidza kuve rudzi rwegirinhi capitalism, munoziva, kuti capitalism inozoona, zvakanaka, pamwe zviri nani kutendeukira kune solar panels nezvimwe zvakadaro. Iri kutozviona.
JS: Iri raive zano remhando yeBarack Obama nezve Green New Deal yaive yegirinhi capitalism.
SH: Ehe, ndinoreva, iwe unozviona ikozvino kunyange The Greens muGermany. Chiizve? Ndinoreva, zvakafanana ndingati, uye iyo injodzi huru. Uye capitalism yave kutoshanda pakubatana pamwe nekuita purofiti kubva mairi. Uye kumwe kutya kwandinako ndekwekuti wakazviona, semuenzaniso, naLe Pen nguva pfupi yadarika panguva yesarudzo dzeEurope chimwe chinhu chatinofanira kudaidza kuti eco-fascism. Uye hachisi chinhu chitsva zvachose, kana iwe ukadzokera kuna Hitler - kuGermany yaHitler - uye kana iwe ukatarisa mapikicha, uchaona semuenzaniso, Eva Brown aive tenzikadzi wake, achiita yoga pagungwa rakanaka uye ipapo pfungwa dzese. yakanga iri rudzi rwokudzokera kuna munoziva, blut und boden [ropa nevhu.]
Uye iwe unogona kuzviona nhasi zvakare kuti aya ndiwo mafascists ari kushandisawo avo - Zvakanaka, havasi kutaura nezveGreen New Deal, asi vari kutaurawo nezve kudzoka kune hunhu uye zvichingodaro. muitiro une ngozi zvikuru, ndingati. Saka, idzi ndidzo njodzi mbiri dzeGreen New Deal.
Uye ndinofunga kuti chidzidzo cheNon-Aligned Movement kubva muzana remakore rechi20, iyo yakavambwa naTito, Nehru, Nasser, uye nyika dzakawanda dzakabatanidzwa ndechokuti panzvimbo yekutevera, ngatitii nyika dzekuMadokero, idzo nyika dzakawanda. inokonzera dambudziko remamiriro ekunze, maodzanyemba epasi rose anofanira kuvaka nzira itsva dzekubatana. Uye inofanira kutumira marara ayo kunyika dzekuMadokero.
JS: Hongu, ndinoda kutaura zvishoma pamusoro peNon-Aligned Movement nekuti ndinofunga kuti inhoroondo yakakosha, kunyanya kuti vechidiki vadzidze. Iwe unoziva, wakataura Nehru, Nasser, naTito asi pakupedzisira nyika zhinji dzakabatana kuzivisa: Isu hatisi pasi peSoviet Union uye hatisi pasi pechirongwa cheAmerican empire capitalistic.
Uye vakaedza kuveza nzira yavo yechitatu, zvino makaita masangano erusununguko kubva kumativi eAsia neAfrica achibatana neYugoslavia, neIndia, neEgypt nedzimwe nyika kuti hatidi kutora chikamu mune zvauri. yava kudaidza iyi Cold War. Tinoda kuvaka imwe modhi yekuti nzanga dzinogona kudyidzana sei nekuronga. Uye chaizvoizvo, Malcolm X akataura pamusoro peKusabatana kweMovement mune dzimwe hurukuro dzake uye Bandung Conference pakati pe1950s.
Uye zvino nyika dzese idzi dzakaungana uye dzakaona kuti hapana Soviet Union kana United States yaizogadzirisa matambudziko enyika uye kuti nyika dzisina simba kana hupfumi hwenyika dzekumaodzanyemba dzaifanira kubatana pamwe chete kugadzira nzira yechitatu kuti vasaite. kuti vave vanotsamira mune zveupfumi pahumambo huviri hunopikisana, asiwo kuti vagokwanisa kuumba zviono zvavo zvehunhu, zvemagariro, uye kururamisira kuti nyika inofanira kurongeka sei.
SH: Ndingati, hongu, isu tinoda chaizvo chimwe chinhu chakafanana nhasi, kunyangwe dambudziko riripo kuti mamiriro ese akachinja hongu. Hatichisiri muCold war. Hatina, iwe unoziva, rudzi urwu rwenyika yepolar uko kune rumwe rutivi une United States, kune rumwe rutivi, une Soviet Russia -
JS: Wakamboona terevhizheni muUnited States nguva pfupi yadarika here? Nekuti ndizvo chete zvavanotaura ndezvekuti tine Cold War itsva iyi uye maBolsheviks ari kuuya kuzobira sarudzo dzedu.
SH: Ehe, ini handina, asi ndaona - asi izvo, iwe unogona zvakare kuona kuti haisi maBolsheviks chete, zvakare maChinese, munoziva. Haisi chete maRussia zvakare nehondo yekutengeserana nemaChinese. Saka, kunyangwe ukatarisa terevhizheni, uchaona kuti kune vatambi vakasiyana izvozvi. Saka ini ndingati inoratidzawo chokwadi chekuti isu tinorarama munyika yakawanda, iyo yakasiyana, asi hongu, propaganda uye mafungiro akafanana zvikuru neCold War, munoziva.
Kunyangwe zvine njodzi zvakanyanya, nekuti nhasi, iwe unoziva, hazvisi zvekungotora nzira dzekugadzira. Ndingati nhasi, ndezvekutora memes ekugadzira. Iwe unogona kuona kuti iyi propaganda yakabudirira zvakanyanya, nekuda kwehunyanzvi uye memes, kune rumwe rutivi, izvo, iwe unoziva, uku kusikwa kwemifananidzo kwenguva pfupi yekutarisisa, uye yakakurumbira, sezvawaona neBolsonaro, semuenzaniso, uye basa reWhat's App. Uye kune rumwe rutivi, une rudzi rwe pre-programming yezvematongerwo enyika, senge nyaya yeCambridge Analytica, semuenzaniso, uye Facebook yakaratidza.
Saka, izvo zvine njodzi, asi chaizvo mumamiriro ezvinhu erudzi urwu, unoda rudzi rutsva rwerusununguko rwepasi rose, rwunozodzidza zvidzidzo zveNon-Aligned Movement. Chii chakabudirira uye chii chakakundikana? Nekuti iyo Non-Aligned Movement ichiripo nanhasi uye zvakanaka, kangani paunonzwa nezvayo? Rinotaura zvakawanda.
Ndingati rimwe rematambudziko uye chinhu chimwe chatinofanira kunyatso fungazve ndechekuti iyo Non-Aligned Movement yaingove yenyika-nyika yaive yezana ramakore rechi20. Ini ndinofunga kunyangwe iwe uine nhasi kwese kwese kudzokera kurudzi-nyika, America kutanga, Hungary kutanga, Somalia kutanga, chero, ndinofunga nyika-nyika sepfungwa yakapihwa maitiro ekuenda kudambudziko rakakura remamiriro ekunze, inogona kunge iri pfungwa. kubva kare.
Ndinorevei kana zvakadaro? Kana iwe uine kukwira kwemazinga egungwa, kana zvinoenderana ne-ndinofunga, yaitove iyo World Bank. Kana maererano nenhamba dzavo, panosvika gore ra2050, munenge mava nemazana emamiriyoni evapoteri kunyanya vanobva kuMaodzanyemba kwenyika vachiedza kuuya kuEurope, ipapo pfungwa chaiyo yenyika-nyika inofanira kuchinja. Iyo chaiyo pfungwa yehuchangamire inofanirwa kuchinja uye isu tichada kudyidzana kwepasirese, munoziva.
Handizive kana uchangobva kuona, saka handitarise terevhizheni yeU.S., zvinosuwisa. Ndinoda kuiona. Ndinofarira kuona ideology uye kuigadzirisa. Asi ini nguva pfupi yadarika ndichiona ngano dzesainzi dzeChinese uye paNetflix, handizive kana ndingazvitaura. Asi vanga vachiita zvimwe zvinhu zvakanaka zvakare, kwete chete Alfonso Cuarรณn's Roma, iyo yakaonekwa ipapo. Asi nguva pfupi yadarika, bhaisikopo reChinese blockbuster science fiction rakaonekwa paNetflix. Uye zvinoshamisa, chaizvoizvo, chero chaunofunga nezvehutano uye rondedzero, nezvimwe zvakadaro. Asi nyaya yacho inonakidza chaizvo, isingawanzoitiki, kwaunoziva, une mamiriro ezvinhu umo zuva riri kushanduka kuva giant tsvuku, kuitira kuti nyika yose ibatane. Ivo vanoumba rudzi rwehurumende yenyika, munoziva, iyi yekare Emmanuel Kant pfungwa yekuti vavhoti, nyika dziuye pamwe chete dzigadzire hurumende yenyika. Kuti vaumbe hurumende yenyika yoseโzvinonzwika zvoupengo chose zvandichataura zvinoโvanoisa mamotor 10,000 XNUMX kuseri kwepasi rePasi, uye ipapo vanoedza kuburitsa Nyika kubva mukutenderera kwayo kuenda kuzuva idzva. Uye, iwe unoziva, zvakanaka, ingano yesainzi, asi handina kumbofungidzira kuti - Munoziva, ndinofunga hatigone kana kufungidzira zvingave zvichiitika nekuda kwedambudziko remamiriro ekunze.
Semuenzaniso, tora Arctic, tora chando chinonyunguduka, icho chave kuita chokwadi zvakataurwa naFredric Jameson, iwe unoziva, kuti zvinokwanisika kufungidzira zvinhu zvose, kunyange kuguma kwenyika asi kwete kuguma kwehupfumi. Saka, iwe unoziva, unogona kufungidzira kuguma kwenyika. Ice iri kunyungudika zvichingodaro asi capitalism ichaenderera mberi.
Gore rapfuura, Donald Trump akapa mvumo yekuchera kweArctic. Wakaona zvakare kuti NATO yaive neimwe yakakura kwazvo - ini ndaingove muNorway panguva iyoyo. Saka, ndinozvirangarira. Yaive nemitambo mikuru yemauto chaizvo muArctic. Saka, pane kufarira kukuru kwenzvimbo iyoyo uye iwe unogona kuona kuti dambudziko remamiriro ekunze richagadzira nzira nyowani kwete dzekutakura zvinhu chete asiwo dzekushandiswa kwemafuta emafuta. Kana tora semuenzaniso, permafrost. Havasi vanhu vazhinji vanotaura nezvepermafrost, asi nekunyangarika kwepermafrost, inogona kunge yakatonyanya kutyisa kupfuura nekushanduka kwemamiriro ekunze. Uye hatigoni kunyange kufanotaura zvingaitika nokuda kwaizvozvo.
Saka, kana iwe uine maitiro aya, kana uine mazana emamiriyoni evapoteri mumakore makumi maviri kana matatu anotevera vachiuya kuU. nhoroondo yevanhu, ndingati, nokuti iwe uchadawo kushandisa semuenzaniso uto, iwe unoziva, kwete kutungamira hondo, iwe unoziva, asi kubatsira vanhu, iwe unoziva, kupa nzira dzekuvaponesa uye zvichingodaro. Uye zvinosuruvarisa, ndinoona kuti tave kutoenda nenzira iyoyo. Kunze kwekunge isu takwanisa kugadzira nharaunda yepasi rose iyo ingave mhedzisiro yesangano rerusununguko rwepasirese uye rudzi rwekutsva kwakarongeka, ndingati, iyo inogona kudzoserwa kupikisa capitalism, kupesana nekushandiswa kwezviwanikwa, kupesana nekutengesa kwevanhu, manzwiro avo uye rusununguko rwokuzvisarudziraโzviri kuitika noruzivo rwokugadzira zvinhuโkunze kwokunge tabudirira kuumba sangano iri repasi rose uye nzanga yepasi rose, inova ndiyo nzanga yokutanga yepasi rose, ndinotya kuti panosvika 2050, tichaona nyika inenge yakafanana. Chinese science fiction nenzira yakaipisisa.
JS: Ndinoda kupedzisa nekukubvunza nezve kwatinofanira kutsvaga tariro. Unonyora, "Chatinoda kupfuura nakare kose nhasi tariro isina tariro. Iyi ndiyo chete nzira kubva pakupokana kuenda kurusununguko. " Tsanangura zvaunoreva.
SH: Ndingati tariro nenzira imwecheteyo, kusava netariro ipfungwa ine njodzi. Nekuti kana iwe uri pessimist, saka iwe hauna kana chido chekumuka, uye iwe unoziva, kuve unoshingaira munzanga. Kuva netariro kune ngoziwo nokuti kunovimbisa tariro dzenhema. Uye ndosaka ndichifunga kuti tinoda tariro, pasina tarisiro. Ndinovimba, ndinofunga yezana ramakore re21 ndiyo inonyanya kukosha pfungwa, ndingadaro. Tariro mupfungwa yokuti ndinofunga kuti vanofambira mberi munyika yose vanofanira kurega kungotsoropodza capitalism, kusimuka kwekodzero yepopulism, authoritarianism, nezvimwewo uye ivo vanofanira kupa kwete tariro chete, asi chiono chenzanga umo isu. kuda kurarama, munoziva, kunyatsoenda munzira yekufungidzira zvinhu zvisingafungidzirwe.
Semuyenzaniso, regai ndikupei pfungwa yakapenga yaigona kuitwa mangwana mangwanani, kana paine hurumende yepasi rose. Ehe, hazvigone kuitwa mangwana mangwanani nekuti kuti tisvike kurudzi rwehurumende yepasirese, tinoda nguva yakawanda. Uye ipapo pane mubvunzo nekuti ini ndine anarchist yapfuura zvakare, kunyangwe iwe uchida hurumende kana kwete, izvo hazvina kukosha. Asi ngatifungei kuti isu tinobudirira kugadzira rudzi rwehurongwa hwekugoverazve ndege dzepasirese padanho repasi rose, nekuti tinoziva kuti ndege dzepasirese dziri kubatsira mukukwira kwe CO2 uye kudambudziko remamiriro ekunze. Saka isu hatigone kufungidzira, semuenzaniso, kana kushanda pachirongwa ichi chekuti, zvakanaka, kana iwe uchida kubhururuka, unogona kubhururuka kaviri pagore, semuenzaniso? Ndinoziva kuti vanhu vazhinji vanobhururuka kuenda kuBilderberg mazuva ano havangafari neizvi kunyanya.
Asi kana iwe usingade kubhururuka, unogona, semuenzaniso, unogona kufungidzira mhando yemusika kwaunogona kutengesa ndege yako kune mumwe munhu anoda kubhururuka. Kunyangwe ini ndisingafungi kuti musika imhinduro yakanaka isu takaiona nekusvibiswa kwemhepo zvakare, nenzira iyo iwe unogona kubva wangoiburitsa kunze. Asi ini ndinofunga isu tinofanirwa kufungidzira, iwe unoziva, iyo Green New Deal, ndinofunga, chero inoramba ichipokana-capitalist uye post-capitalist inzira yekusangofungidzira, asi kugadzira rudzi urwu rweramangwana netariro, iwe. ziva, nei tisingafambi zvakanyanya nezvitima kupfuura nemota? Ndinoreva kuti, kana ukaenda kuUnited States, nguva dzose pandinouya kuUnited States, ndinobva ndaora mwoyo pakarepo pandinongobva panhandare yendege, pandinouya kumugwagwa mukuru, uye ndichaona motokari dzakawanda kwazvo dzine ropa. Uye kana ukaona kuti, mumotokari yega yega mune munhu mumwe chete, munoziva, pachinzvimbo chevanhu vana mukati mayo, semuenzaniso, kana kuti pachinzvimbo chekuva nezvitima.
Izvi ndizvo - kutaura sei? Imhosva kune pfungwa dzevanhu kuti isu tichiri kutyaira mota dzese idzi, ndingati, munoziva. Uye ramangwana riri kuuya neautomation uye budiriro yetekinoroji, iwe unoziva, zviri kuitika kune vatyairi vemarori muUnited States, kuti 3.5 miriyoni yavo mumakore gumi kana maviri anotevera, vacharasikirwa nemabasa. Ini handifunge kuti mhinduro ipapo ndeyekuti, iwe unoziva, kudzokera mumhando iyi yegirini capitalism kana chimwe chinhu, asi kunyatsogadzira nzira nyowani dzekufambisa, iyo yaizove panguva imwechete yeruzhinji uye isiri yega.
Iwe unoziva, iwe unogona kutoenda kure kutaura kuti izvo Elon Musk ari kuita naTesla achimanikidza vamwe vakwikwidzi pamusika kuti vatumire zvakare tekinoroji iyi uye kupinda mumotokari dzemagetsi ndizvo chaizvo, zvingave zvakanaka. Kunyangwe, ini ndinogona kutsoropodza Elon Musk kune zvakawanda, zvinhu zvakawanda, sezvinoita vanhu vazhinji. Asi zvingava zvakanaka nokuti unogona kufungidzira, uye ndicho chinhu Yanis Varoufakis akandipa pfungwa iyoyo patakanga tichitaura, zvinosuruvarisa, mumotokari muGermany, panguva yesarudzo yesarudzo yataiva nayo mavhiki mashoma apfuura. Uye ipapo akati, asi fungidzira ramangwana apo, hurumende inogona kuita nyika idzi dzese mota dzemagetsi izvo zvinozovepo mumakore mashanu.
Ndinoziva nyika uye kubvisirwa nyika hachisi chinhu chakakurumbira, asi nei isu tisingafungidzire magetsi, zana muzana ezvifambiso zveveruzhinji zvakachena izvo zvisiri zvavo, munoziva, rudzi urwu rwehupenzi mamiriro apo vanhu vanotaridzika chaizvo sevatambi bhaisikopo, Idiocracy, munoziva. Munhu mumwechete, mota imwe, mafuta efossil, uye kungotyaira tenderera, kwete kana kutyaira. Ndinoreva, kana wakatarisa migwagwa yeU.S., vanhu havasi kana kutyaira. Vakangomira vakagara, munoziva, mumotokari dzakapusa idzi, uye vanofanira kuva nemota. Sei vachifanira kuva nemotokari? Eya, ideology yemacapitalist, nekuti makumi emakore ese aya, vaitiratidza kuti uri murume kana mukadzi akabudirira kana uine mota, kana uine imba, kana uine, kana uchitenga, tenga, tenga, woshandisa. zvakafanana shitty zvigadzirwa.
JS: Saka, sezvatinoziva Julian Assange, mumwe wevakatanga WikiLeaks, ari mujeri reBritish. Tinonzwisisa kuti utano hwake huri kuramba huchiipa. Akaendeswa kuBelmar Medical Ward. Ari kutarisana ne17 espionage kuverenga muUnited States izvozvi. IU.S. iri kuda kuti abviswe. Iyi ihondo yakanangana nevaparidzi vese kwete Assange chete. Uye panguva imwe cheteyo, Chelsea Manning ari mutirongo zvakare nekuda kwekuramba kupa humbowo mudare redzimhosva rakakonzera kupomerwa kutsva uku pasi peEspionage Act yaJulian Assange. Iwe naAi Weiwei nevamwe vanhu vekune dzimwe nyika vanga vachiratidzira vachipokana nekutanga, kusungwa kwaAssange, iko zvino kusungwa kwaAssange uye kutarisana nemhosva idzi dzehupi. Sei uri kutora nguva kubva muhupenyu hwako kuratidzira kurapwa kwaJulian Assange?
SH: Nokuti akatora nguva muupenyu hwake kutirwira. Zvino kana ndichiti kurwira kuti tirwire mukana chaiwo wekuva neruzivo. Kuti uve neruzivo, zviri kuitwa nehurumende dzine simba zvakanyanya kana masangano epachivande kana makambani munyika, kubva kuhondo yeAfghanistan kusvika kuhondo muIraq. Hazvingave zvakanaka here kuti, semuenzaniso, iko zvino nemakakatanwa ese aya neIran mumwe munhu angadenha chaizvo izvo Pentagon uye izvo Bolton naPompeo neava vese varwi vechirume chena vari kuronga kurwisa Iran? Uye zvakaitwa neWikiLeaks ndezvekuti kekutanga munhoroondo yemazuva ano, yakagadzira hurongwa hwaunogona kuchengetedza avo vakashinga vanoridza muridzo vakaita saEdward Snowden, Chelsea Manning, nevamwe vaizoshambadza ruzivo urwu uye rwaizowanikwa kwatiri tese. . Chaizvo munyika ino yenhau dzenhema uye memes uye mamiriro aya chokwadi hachisina basa. Ndakatoona kuvharirwa kusiri pamutemo kuEmbassy yeEcuadorian kunyomba kukuru kweWestern democracies.
Ndakashanyira Julian kazhinji kuEmbassy yeEcuador uye chiitiko chawaizopinda muEmbassy yeEcuadorian paKnightsbridge muLondon chinokuudza zvese zvisina kunaka nenyika yanhasi. Iwe unoziva, aive akavharirwa zvisina tsarukano kwemakore manomwe munzvimbo diki yemumiriri weEcuadorian. Usati wapinda mumiriri weEcuadorian, iwe uchaona iyi yakasarudzika nzvimbo yekutenga inonzi Harrods. Iwe waizoona Ferraris, Lamborghinis, pamberi peembassy yeEcuadorian ine mahwendefa eSaudi Arabia. Uchaona kuti, unoziva, muparidzi akanga atova nemakore manomwe akasungwa. Akawana hupoteri hwezvematongerwo enyika nehurumende yaimbova yakashinga yeEcuadorian, kusiyana neyazvino, iyo iri kutengesa Julian nokuda kwezvikwereti neIMF nezvimwe zvakadaro. Uye yaitova scandal. Chii chiri kuitika iye zvino, ndinofunga, inyaya yakatokura nekuti demokrasi kuMadokero iri kufa kana mumwe munhu akaita saJulian Assange ari mutirongo.
Uye ndakawana, Jeremy Hunt, zvaakataura nguva pfupi yadarika nezveJulian Assange kuti angadai akabuda chero nguva yandinowana, ndinoreva, ndinowana Jeremy Hunt semunyori wekunze akaipisisa munhoroondo yeUK. uye zviri pachena kuti haazivi kunyange geography kana nhoroondo yakaenzaniswa nevatungamiri vakadai saChurchill, uye zvichingodaro, avo vangave vaine kunzwisisa kwe geography uye geopolitics, asiwo maonero ake pamusoro paJulian Assange. Zvamunoona zviri kuitika nhasi ndezvekuti hurumende dzese idzi, Ecuador, iko zvino kunyangwe U.K., dziri kusangana naJohn Bolton, naPompeo, nevakuru veUS vari kuda kuti Julian Assange adzorerwe kuUnited States nekukurumidza.
Uye nei izvi zvine ngozi? Kana izvo zvikaitika, ndinofunga, kutaura nezve democracy hazvigoneki nekuti hapana democracy pasina rusununguko rwekutaura. Iko hakuna democracy isina First Amendment muU.S. Hapana democracy pasina rusununguko rwekudhinda. Uye hapana democracy kana iwe usingakwanisi kutarisa ruzivo, kuva neruzivo, zviri kuitika zuva rega rega, kwete munyika dzekunze chete, dzakadai seIraq, Iran, Afghanistan, asi munyika yako.
Zvakadzika sei semuenzaniso, bato reDemocratic Party rakashatiswa? Uye pachinzvimbo chekuti vatore Bernie Sanders semumiriri, vakasarudza Hillary Clinton uye Hillary Clinton aiseka VaTrump vachifunga kuti VaTrump vaive mumiriri wepamusoro nekuti havana mukana. Ndinoreva, izvi zvakaratidzwa neWikiLeaks, tisingataure zvakare zvakazarurwa nezve basa reimwe yemakambani ane simba epasi rose eGoogle musarudzo dzeUS, kana semuenzaniso, Palantir iri kuita iko zvino nemisasa yevasungwa yevana. Zvingave zvakanaka kuti isu tine sangano rinoburitsa ruzivo urwu ruchiri zvakavanzika?
Saka, kana kuburitswa kwaJulian Assange kukaitika, ndinofunga kuti hazvichagone kutaura nezve democracy zvakare. Vamwe vanhu vazhinji, kusanganisira vatori venhau, vanogona kupedzisira vasungwawo. Uye izvi hazvisi kuitika muChina. Izvi hazvisi kuitika muRussia. Izvi zviri kuitika pakati pebudiriro yeEurope, muLondon. Zviri kuitika muEurope. Uye ndinofunga kuti uku ndiko kunyomba kukuru kwekutanga kwezana ramakore rechi21. Icho chokwadi chekuti munhu asina kuuraya munhu anochengetwa mutirongo ine mhondi dzakawanda, nemagandanga nevamwe vanhu maawa makumi maviri nematatu muchitokisi chake.
JS: Zvakanaka, Srecko Horvat, ndinoda kukutendai zvikuru nebasa rose ramakaita nekuramba muchiita uye nekutenda nekuva nesu pano paIntercepted.
SH: Ndinokutendai zvikuru uye ndinoda kukutendai nebasa rose riri kuitwa neIntercepted. Zvakakosha zvikuru. Kwete muUnited States chete asiwo kuti Europe ive nerudzi urwu rwenhau rwatinosuwa kupfuura nakare kose.
JS: Srecko Horvat muzivi uye nyanduri anobva kuCroatia mune yaimbova Yugoslavia. Ndiye munyori we "Europe Inodei ?: Mubatanidzwa uye Kusagutsikana Kwayo" uyezve, "Tinogamuchirwa Kurenje rePost-Socialism," uye "Radicality yeRudo." NaYanis Varoufakis, ndiye mumwe wevakatanga Democracy muEurope Movement. Bhuku rake razvino ndere "Nhetembo Kubva Mune Ramangwana: Nei Global Liberation Movement iri Yedu Yebudiriro Yekupedzisira Mukana."
Uye izvo zvinozviita kune iyi yakakosha bhonasi chikamu cheIntercepted. Unogona kutitevera pa Twitter. Mubato wedu ndewe @intercepted. Kana iwe uchida zvatinoita, tsigira iyi show nekuenda kuintercept.com/join uye uve nhengo inotsigira. Yakapindirwa kugadzirwa kweFirst Look Media uye Iyo Intercept. Mugadziri wedu anotungamira ndiJack D'Isidoro. Mugadziri wedu ndiLaura Flynn. Elise Swain ndiye shamwari yedu mugadziri uye graphic mugadziri. Mugadziri wedu mukuru ndiLeital Molad. Betsy Reed ndiye mupepeti-mukuru weThe Intercept. Rick Kwan akasanganisa show. Kunyoreswa kwechirongwa ichi kunoitwa naNuria Marquez Martinez. Mimhanzi yedu, senguva dzose, yakagadzirwa naDJ Spooky. Kusvikira nguva inotevera, ndiri Jeremy Scahill.
ZNetwork inopihwa mari chete kuburikidza nerupo rwevaverengi vayo.
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