AMY GOODMAN: Vasungwa vana musupermax Ohio State Penitentiary vatanga kuramwa nzara vachiratidzira kwavanoti kushungurudzwa kwavo kwakaipisisa vari muhusungwa. Vasungwa ava — Bomani Shakur, Siddique Abdullah Hasan, Jason Robb naNamir Abdul Mateen — vakatongerwa rufu nenyaya yekupindira mumhirizhonga yemujeri muna 1993 muLucasville, Ohio. Kwemazuva 11, vasungwa vanopfuura 400 vakaita mhirizhonga vachipikisa mamiriro ezvinhu emujeri. Vasungwa vapfumbamwe negadhi vakaurayiwa. Yakanga iri bongozozo remujeri rakanyanya kudeura ropa kubva kuAttica. Hasan naRobb vakatongerwa rufu, kunyangwe vakabatsira kutaurirana kupera kwemhirizhonga, uye vatsigiri vanoti vese vari vana vakabatwa nemhosva zvisirizvo.
Kweanopfuura makore gumi nemanomwe, vanga vachichengetwa mumaawa makumi maviri nematatu pazuva-kuvharika vari voga. Nemusi weMuvhuro, vana ava vakatanga kuramba kudya kudzamara vaburitswa muchitokisi chavo voga voendeswa kurufu, kwavanoti vacharapwa zviri nani. Mune chirevo, mumwe wevasungwa, Bomani Shakur, akati, "Takatongerwa chirango pamusoro pechirango; takadzivirirwa kuti tisatore chikamu zvizere mukuchema kwedu, kubata shamwari nemhuri dzedu; kunyimwa kurapwa kwakakwana; uye vazhinji. zvimwe zvinhu zvawandisa kuzvireva. Neshoko rimwe, takatambudzwa.
Kune zvimwe, tiri kuenda kuOhio, kwatinosanganiswa nemunyori wenhoroondo, gweta, murwiri wevashandi uye Quaker pacifist Staughton Lynd. Mumakore ekuma60 akadzidzisa nhoroondo paSpelman College muGeorgia padivi peHoward Zinn uye akabatsira kutungamira Mississippi Freedom Schools. Muna Kubvumbi 1965, akataura pakutanga Kurume paWashington achipesana neHondo yeVietnam uye akave mutungamiri wekutanga webato rinopesana nehondo. Kubva kuma1970, Staughton Lynd yakatarisana zvakanyanya nenyaya dzebasa nejeri. Muna 2004, akanyora nhoroondo yechokwadi yekumukirana kwe1993 Ohio kuLucasville.
Staughton Lynd, unogamuchirwa ku Dememocracy Zvino! Izvi hazvina kunaka, kutaura zvishoma, kuti vasungwa vana ava vati zviri nani kuti vatongerwe rufu pane zvavari pari zvino. Kune vateereri pasi rose vasina kujairana neOhio State Penitentiary, tsanangura kuti sei varume ava vari mujeri uye kuti sei vari mujeri iri.
STUGHTON LYND: Ehe, vari mutirongo nekuda kwemhosva dzakasiyana siyana, asi vese vari mutirongo iri nekuda kwehutungamiriri hwavo hwavanoti hwekumukira kwa1993. Uye vanovharirwa muhusungwa kupfuura vamwe vasungwa vanopfuura zana vakatongerwa rufu mujeri rimwe chetero. Zvino, sei izvi? Ndizvo chaizvo nekuti sisitimu inofunga nezvavo sevatungamiriri. Saka, zvichaita kuti vaone terevhizheni. Vanotorega Bomani Shakur vachishandisa tapureta. Asi chavasingaregi chero wevarume vana ava kuita kuve munzvimbo imwe chete nemumwe munhu asiri murindi panguva imwe chete. Uye izvi zvinoreva kuti nepo vamwe vasungwa mutongo werufu vachigona kudzungaira pamusoro pepod, vanogona kudya pamwe chete kunze kwezvitokisi zvavo, uye kunyanya vanogona kushanyirwa neshamwari nemhuri dzavo, ivo vana vanogara vachisungirwa kusangana nenyika kuburikidza neyakaomarara. gonhi resero kana kuti, pavanobuda pashanyo, nepahwindo rakasimba regirazi. Zvekuti, zvakare, Bomani ane mwana wemukoma nemunin'ina ane makore masere nematatu waanoda uye waanoshuvira kubata. Kudai aiva akatongerwa rufu, aigona kuita izvozvo. Asi akaudzwa nevakuru vejeri kuti haazombofa akatongerwa rufu, nekuti vachamuchengeta ari ega kusvika vamuuraya.
AMY GOODMAN: Zvichireva kuti ari pamutsetse werufu, asi kwete panyama. Anotongerwa kufa, asi chaizvoizvo haasi pamutsara.
STUGHTON LYND: Ndizvozvo. Uye saka, varume ava vanonzwa kuti vakapihwa chirango chekupedzisira cherufu uyezve chimwe chinhu.
AMY GOODMAN: Zvino, kuti tinzwisise kuti varipi, kuti jeri iri rakavakwa sei, zvinorehwa ne supermax, ngatidzokerei, zvakanaka, nyaya yebhuku renyu, Lucasville: The Untold Story yekumukirana kweJeri. Chii chakaitika muna 1993?
STUGHTON LYND: Eya, muna 1990, paLucasville, iro rakanga riri jeri rokuchengetedzwa kwepamusoro-soro reOhio—kwete gurusa, guru—paiva nechiitiko chinotyisa uye, ndingawedzera, chiitiko chisinganzwisisike, zvichida chisinganzwisiswi zvachose, apo musungwa wechirume mutema akatevera mudzidzisi wechichena. muchimbuzi chevakadzi, uye sezvo mapurisa echichena aida kuputsa gonhi, aine marudzi ose efungidziro dzokubatwa chibharo mundangariro dzavo, musungwa akacheka huro yemukadzi wacho. Uye izvo zvakakonzera inonzi Operation Shakedown. Murindiri mutsva akaunzwa. Pauriri pakanga pakanyorwa mitsetse yaipendirwa vanhu kuti vadye. Paiva nebhokisi reposvo chairo rakanga rakagadzirwa nomurindiri kuitira kuti vasungwa vagozivisana—ndiko kuti, kubvutirana—mumwe nomumwe. Uye icho chagara chichiratidzika kwandiri sechimwe chinhu chikurusa chekurukurirano, vasungwa vaibvumirwa runhare kamwe chete panguva yeKisimusi pagore.
Saka, muna 1993, sezvawakataura, Amy, vasungwa vanopfuura 400 vakatora chitokisi chikuru mujeri. Uye ndinotenda kuti chinangwa chavo chaive chekuda kubata pfungwa dzaColumbus uye kuti vakuru vejeri rehurumende vapindire kuitira kuti vasungwa vechiMuslim vasabatwe nepfuti yeTB yavanoti ine phenol, yavaiti yaive nedoro uye, semaonero avo. uye maonero evanachipangamazano vavo vechitendero, akanga asingabvumirwi kwavari sevaMuslim. Asi chii chakaitika, ndinofunga, pakanga pari apo iri basa risiri rechisimba rakatangwa, mirangariro yose yokupfigirwa yevasungwa yakazviratidza imene. Vese vari vaviri varindi nevasungwa vakakuvadzwa zvakaipisisa. Varindi vasere vakaramba vari nhapwa. Mumwe wevakapambwa ivavo akapondwa. Uye naizvozvo, pakanga pane kuzvipira kwakakurukurirana, umo vaviri vevarume vakanga vatongerwa rufu zvino vakatora rutivi, asi mubairo wavo nokuda kwezvavakaita kuedza kuponesa upenyu nenzira iyoyo wakanga uri vamene wokutongerwa rufu. Ndiwo mabviro.
Uye hapana mubvunzo, mutongi wedare akataura pachena kuti supermax muYoungstown, kunogara mudzimai wangu neni, yakavakwa semhinduro yekumukira ikoko. Chokwadi, ndakambova nemukana wekubvunza mutungamiriri wesangano remajeri reOhio kuti sei pakanga pasina varaidzo yekunze paYoungstown supermax, nekuti matunhu mazhinji ane rudzi urwu rwejeri repamusoro, asi mazhinji acho ane imwe nzira yekumhanyisa imbwa, a. tsime rekongiri, kunze, uko vasungwa vanogona kunzwa kunaya kumeso uye kuona zuva. Youngstown, kwete. Saka ndakati, "Director Wilkinson, sei pasina nhandaro kuYoungstown?" Uye akati, “Zvakanaka, bongozozo reLucasville rakatangira pachivanze chekutandara. Saka, hapana mubvunzo kuti kuvakwa chaiko kwejeri iri kwaive kuita — kuwedzeredza — kune zvakaitika muna 1993.
Uye varume ava vari kuvharirwa vakazviparadzanisa nevamwe, kwavasingambove munzvimbo yakafanana nemumwe munhu kunze kwemurindi wejeri, nekuti zvinotyirwa kuti vangazoshandisa matarenda avo erudo uye kutungamira kumwe kumukira. Asi sekusimbisa kwaanoita Bomani pese patinotaura naye, kugona kwake kubata ruoko rwemuzukuru wake ane makore masere kunotyisidzira sei kuchengetedza? Isu tinonzwa kuti kuzviparadzanisa ndiko kutyorwa kweEighth Amendment kurambidza pane hutsinye uye chirango chisina kujairika, zvakanyanya nekuti iwe unogona kuona chirango chakajairika nekutarisa murume ari mudumba rekushanyira rinotevera.
Asi pane nyaya yechipiri, yekuti gore rega rega pane inonzi inoongorora nezvekuchengetedzwa kwevarume ava. Zvino, izvi zvinofanirwa kuve zvakakosha kune wese mugari weAmerica, nekuti ndizvo chaizvo izvo, maereranoNew York Times, hutongi hwaObama huri kuzokurudzira vasungwa gumi nevaviri vari kuGuantánamo zvavanofunga kuti hazvigone kutongwa. Sei isingavaunze kutongwa? Nekuti ivo vanonzi vakapara mhosva dzavakareurura pasi penzira dzekushungurudza zvekuti dare remubatanidzwa haribvumidze kuiswa parekodhi. Saka unoita sei navo? Zvakanaka, Mutungamiriri ari kuti, tichavachengeta kuGuantánamo nekusingaperi, asi gore rega rega tinovapa ongororo yekuchengetedza. Zvino, zvinorevei? Musungwa achati, "Handina kuita zvakaipa mugore rapfuura." Uye vatariri vejeri vachapindura, "Zvakanaka, iwe hauna. Takakuvharira pasi. Izvo hazvitipi chero chiratidzo chekuti iwe waizoita sei iwe uri pazinga rekuchengetedzwa kwepasi kana, mune imwe nzvimbo. nyaya yeGuantánamo, dai wakasunungurwa." Saka ndinofunga kuti utsi nemagirazi. Ndinofunga hunyengeri. Uye ini ndinofunga inofanirwa kupihwa mhosva mune akasimba mazwi nevanhu veAmerica nevemutemo veAmerica.
AMY GOODMAN: Staughton Lynd, vakaronga sei nzara iyi, kana vasingakwanisi kutaurirana?
STUGHTON LYND: Zvakanaka, havatumi foni sevasungwa muGeorgia. Dzimwe nguva zvinokwanisika kushevedzera kumunhu. Kana iwe uri munzira kuenda kune yako wega rack, asi iwe usiri kure zvakanyanya nesero remumwe murume, unogona dzimwe nguva kumupopotera. Ehe, iwe unenge uine discrete mune zvaunotaura. Pane zvakare mukana wekunyora kubva kumusungwa kuenda kumusungwa. Jeri rine kodzero yekuongorora iyo tsamba, haidaro nguva dzose. Asi sezvamunoziva, ndine chokwadi, kubva kune dzimwe bvunzurudzo dzawakaita, vasungwa vane huchenjeri hunoshamisa kana zvasvika, semuenzaniso, kubata hove, inova tsika yekunyora chimwe chinhu, uchichisunga kune pamwe tambo yawakabata. akabvarura pajira, ndokupfura kumusungwa ari munzira. Kudzivirira izvozvo kuti zvisaitike, Ohio State Penitentiary yakaisa zvidimbu zvesimbi kumusoro kumativi uye nechepasi pemasero. Asi chero munzira-uye ini handina kubvunza zvakanyanya-varume vakwanisa kutaura nezvazvo, zvakanaka, tichatanga pazuva rakati nerakati, Muvhuro, Ndira 3, uye tiri kuenderera mberi.
AMY GOODMAN: Aya ndiwo mashoko aVaBomani Hondo Shakur mumwe wevana vari kuramwa nzara. Anoti, "Ndisati ndataura chidimbu changu, regai ndinyatsojekesa chinhu chimwe: Handidi kufa. Ndinoda kurarama uye kufema uye kuedza kuita chimwe chinhu chakarurama nehupenyu hwangu. Chokwadi. Kwemakore gumi nematanhatu apfuura. zvisinei, ndave ndiri muchitokisi changu ndoga, ndakavharirwa muchitokisi maawa 16 pazuva nokuda kwechimwe chinhu chandisina kuita uye, kutaura chokwadi, ndaenda kure sezvandinoda kuenda.
“Ndinoziva kuti kune vamwe venyu pfungwa yokuti murume asina mhosva anogona kuendeswa kujeri ourayiwa haimbofungidziki. Asi zvinoitika. . . .
“Mwedzi mishomanana yapfuura, mumwe mutongi wehurumende akakurudzira [kuti] nyaya yangu irambwe, izvo zvakandiswededza pedyo nokuurayiwa. Zvakaoma kutsanangura kuti izvi zvakaita kuti ndinzwe sei, asi pandakanzwa nhau yacho ndakabva ndafunga kuti ndakanga ndakanganisa. yakanga yaitwa uye kuti gweta rangu rakanga risinganzwisisi mutongo womutongi. Sezvakazoitika, ndini ndakanga ndisina kunzwisisa. Chokwadi, ndanga ndi'singanzwisisi' zvinhu nguva yose iyi."
Ndiwo mashoko aBomani Hondo Shakur. Staughton Lynd, kana uchikwanisa kupindura?
STUGHTON LYND: Eya, mutongi akanga ari mejasitiriti uyo akanga asingatombodi kuiramba, kunze kwokungoramba chikumbiro chake chokutihabeas corpus. Asi sezvo wabvunza, Amy, rega nditsanangure kuti nyaya inotungamira yeBomani pakukwidza nyaya ine chekuita neinonzi kuwanikwa. Ndiko kuti, kodzero yegweta redziviriro yekuwana mamwe mashoko kubva kumuchuchisi asati atongwa. Uye pasi peSupreme Court nyaya yakadanwa Brady v. Maryland, muchuchisi anofanirwa kupa mumiririri chero ruzivo rupi zvarwo rungave rwekuregeredza. Hezvino zvakaitwa nemuchuchisi panyaya yaBomani. Zvakapa gweta rake runyoro rwemazita, mazita akawanda, anopfuura makumi mashanu. Zvakapa gweta rake runyoro rwepfupiso yebvunzurudzo, semitsara mitatu kana mina. Asi yakati, "Hatikwanise kukuudza kuti ndeupi musungwa akapa muchidimbu kubvunzurudzwa, nekuti ingave njodzi yekuchengetedza." Zvino, ndakanga ndisingakwanise kufungidzira dare remubatanidzwa richinzwa kuti iyo yaive nzira yepamutemo yekuwanisa kuwanikwa, asi mutongi, mejasitiriti, akakwanisa kuzviita. Ndinoreva, ndaiva mumaoko angu chirevo chemumwe musungwa umo akati, "Ndakanga ndiripo. Ndakatarisa zviitiko izvo LaMar," sezvaaimudana, "akatongerwa. LaMar akanga asina chokuita nazvo."
AMY GOODMAN: Uye LaMar ari?
STUGHTON LYND: Ndi Bomani Shakur.
Saka, ndinofunga zvirikunzwa vasungwa ava—chaizvoizvo, Bomani anotaura izvi kumwewo mukutaura kwake—“Makore ose akareba aya, makore gumi nemashanu, takaudzwa kuti, kana wasvika kudare redzimhosva, unonyatso ruramisirwa. " Zvino Bomani ari kuti, "Asi handina kunzwisisa. Handizvo zvazviri. Uye ndinofanira kutsvaga imwe nzira yekutora hupenyu hwangu mumaoko angu uye kupikisa." Uye ndozvinoita nzara stereki iyi. Uye isu tose takafunga, hongu, pamusoro peHolocaust uye vanhu vachitungamirirwa kumakamuri egasi, uye "Sei vasina kuita chimwe chinhu?" Handina chokwadi chavaifanira kunge vakaita, asi "Nei vasina kuita chimwe chinhu?" Uye varume ava vari kuedza kupindura mubvunzo iwoyo vachiti, "Zvakanaka, hapana nzira yatinoziva yekupikisa kunze kwekuzvikuvadza nekushaya zvokudya. Asi kana iri nzira imwe chete yakazarurirwa kwatiri, ndizvo zvatichaita. ."
AMY GOODMAN: Staughton Lynd, wakapedzisira kuvashanyira rinhi?
STUGHTON LYND: Ngationei. Uyu Chipiri. Chitatu chapfuura, takashanyira Bomani Shakur. Uye vhiki yapfuura Muvhuro, takashanyira murume wechishanu, uyo wavakatora kubva mu supermax nokuti akanga aora mwoyo zvikuru, uye, mudzimai wangu neni tinodavira, zviremera zvaitya kuti aizozviuraya. Ari kune rimwe jeri reOhio. Asi takamushanyira vose naBomani, uye takambotaura parunhare nevamwe vaviri.
AMY GOODMAN: Uye iye George Skatzes?
STUGHTON LYND: Iye ndiGeorge Skatzes.
AMY GOODMAN: Uh-huh. Uye vari kutya kuti achazviuraya vasati vamuuraya?
STUGHTON LYND: Izvo ndizvo. Takanga tine mukomana akaedza kuzviuraya, uye vakamuendesa kuchipatara cheko, vakamuyamwisa kuupenyu, uye vakazomuuraya vhiki imwe gare gare.
Ndinofanira kuudza vaoni vako kuti Ohio chimwe chinhu. Ohio ndiyo yega nyika yevane makumi mashanu yakauraya vanhu vakawanda muna 50 kupfuura muna 2010. Ohio yave yechipiri kuTexas chete muhuwandu hwevanhu yainouraya. Ohio iri kuita nepainogona napo kuuraya murume mumwechete mwedzi wega wega, asi pakanga paine sarudzo dzekunzwira tsitsi, saka vakangouraya vasere chete muna 2009. Asi, munoziva, Mutsvene Pauro anotaura chimwe chinhu mune imwe yetsamba dzake nezve “Uyai kuMasedhonia mutibatsire. ." Uye iyi iOhio irikuti, "Hei, tinoda rubatsiro." Hunhu uhu huri kunze kwenjanji.
AMY GOODMAN: Unogona here kutaura nezvekuratidzira kwemusungwa, kubva kuGeorgia, nguva pfupi yadarika - wanga uchireva kuratidzira kwenharembozha-
STUGHTON LYND: Hongu.
AMY GOODMAN:—mafambisiro avaiita kuratidzira mumajeri mazhinji, kuOhio?
STUGHTON LYND: Zvakanaka, ndinorangarira ndichienda kumusangano makore apfuura uko majeri makuru aikurukurwa, uye ndakataura chimwe chinhu pamusoro pezvaive zvakakosha kuti gweta, munoziva, kutora hutungamiri kubva kuvasungwa pachavo. Uye rimwe gweta raivepo rakati, "Uri kutaura nezvei? Haugone kuita chero chinhu mujeri repamusoro." Uye, hongu, kune hwaro hwekunzwisisa kwekutarisa ikoko, asi vanhu vanhu vanhu.
Uye dai ndaigona kutora nguva, ndinoda kutsanangura chimwe chezviitiko zvinoshamisa izvo Alice neni takava nazvo neboka iri revanhu, nokuti takatora chiito chekirasi kuDare Repamusorosoro reUnited States tichimiririra vasungwa vose. paOhio supermax, uye pane imwe nguva mutongi akanga akazendamira patiri kuti titaurirane—kuti tigamuchire chimwe chisungo chekugadzirisa chakanga chaitwa nehurumende. Uye isu takati, "Zvakanaka, tine hurombo, kukudzwa kwako. Tinofanira kuenda kune vatengi vedu uye kutaura navo." Zvakanaka, ungataura sei nevatengi vako mujeri repamusoro, kwavasingabvumirwe kuva pamwe chete? Saka jeri racho rakaita kuti tipinde muchitokisi chisina munhu. Mumwe nemumwe we-o, handizive, pamwe gumi neshanu panguva iyoyo-vamhan'ari, vachimiririra marudzi akasiyana ematambudziko, vakaiswa muchitokisi chakasiyana. Mumwe nemumwe aive akavhurika chikafu chake, kuti vagone kuisa maoko avo kuti vavhote. Uye mubvunzo wakauya, "Zvakanaka, tinofanira kubvuma chirevo chekugadzirisa hurumende?" Uye maoko ese aya akabuda pasina. Ndokubva ndati, "Zvakanaka, mukururama, ngationei kana paine anozvitsigira." Ruoko rumwe rwakabuda.
Uye zvakaitika kuti ruoko urwu rwakabva kumurume akanga atumwa kune supermax nenzira inotevera. Aive akamira muraini rekuLucasville. Mumwe munhu akauya shure kwake ndokumurova nechisimba zvikuru-kana ndikati "spatula," iwe uchafunga nezvechinhu chiduku cherata, asi ndiri kutaura kubika kwemaindasitiri, simbi huru spatula. Uye Kevin Roe-iro raiva zita rake-akaendeswa kuchipatara. Apo akanga agwinya zvakakwana kuti abve pachipatara, vakamuendesa, kwete mukomana akanga amurova, kumukurumbira, uko kwakaorora zvikuru mutongi wedu.
Asi pamusangano uyu, mushure mekunge ruoko rwaKevin rwauya kuzovhota hongu, ndakati, nenzira yangu yeQuaker, "Kevin, hauna kungopedza kuvhota here?" Uye inzwi rakauya kubva kumusoro, "Zvakanaka, ndinofungidzira kuti ndizvo zvinoitika kana iwe ukarohwa pamusoro ne spatula." Uye nzvimbo yose yakaputsika mukuseka. Uye chainakidza uye chainakidza ndechekuti vazhinji vevarume ava vakanga vasati vamboonana. Uye zvakadaro, vakakwanisa kuumba chimiro chakafanana mukupindura kune imwe nyaya yakaoma iyo yakawanda yaivimba nayo.
Saka, ndinofunga-unoziva, Viktor Frankl akanyora bhuku rinonzi Munhu Anotsvaka Chinangwa nezvezvakaitika mumusasa wevasungwa. Akati, "Vanhu vanogara vaine sarudzo." Pane nguva dzose chimwe-chinopfuura chinhu chimwe chaunogona kuita. Uye ndinofunga kuti ichokwadi nezve supermax vasungwa, zvakare. Isu-nekuda kwemhosva yedu, takanyorerana nevanhu munyika yese-Pelican Bay neCalifornia, maodzanyemba, Midwest-uye kune vanhu vazhinji vakajeka kwazvo vari kubatwa pasi pemamiriro ezvinhu anorema. Uye kana usina chekuita zuva rose asi funga nezve nzira dzaungaedza nadzo, nekunetseka kupi, kupindura, kurwisa, zvinoshamisa kuti vanhu vanogona kuve vakangwara sei.
AMY GOODMAN: Iri boka revarume, varume vana paYoungstown richasvika riini—vacharamba vari pakuramwa nzara uku, Staughton Lynd kusvikira rini?
STUGHTON LYND: Zvakanaka, iwo mubvunzo unotyisa. Mumwe wevanhu vatiri kushanda navo ndipurofesa paState University yeNew York, Binghamton, mutungamiriri wezvidzidzo zvakapedza kudzidza mune zvemagariro evanhu, uye akanyora bhuku pamusoro pekuramwa nenzara kweIrish mukutanga kwema1980, iro vazhinji vangarangarira. , apo Bobby Sands nevamwe vanenge gumi nevaviri vakazviuraya nenzara.
Ikozvino, ndanga ndichikwenya pamusoro pechokwadi. Ini naAlice tose—Alice ane makore 80, ini ndine makore 81. Hatisi chikamu chehofisi yezvemitemo. Zvakaoma chaizvo kuti titange kutongwa. Asi pane mhosva yakamirira kuunzwa kune vakomana ava, uye pane muenzaniso wakanaka kwazvo kubva kuAngola supermax muLouisiana. Uye tariro yangu ingava iyi: kuti mushure mekunge varamwa nzara kwenguva yakareba sei, zvaizokwanisika kuita musangano wevatori venhau uye kuti, "Vanhu havagone kuita izvi nekusingaperi. Asi senzira yekuwedzera yekurwisa, isu." kutangazve nyaya inotevera," kana chingava chikumbiro kumutungamiriri. Sezvineiwo, kana vanhu vachifarira chikumbiro, pane webhusaiti,www.ipetitions.com-ndiyo nyaya yakaderera i, hapana dot, zvichemo dot com - uko vanhu vaigona kuenda kunosaina chikumbiro kuvakuru. Ndinovimba kuti, ingava nyaya, chikumbiro, makomiti ekubvunzurudza, chero chii, pachava nemamwe masupplementary forms ekuita akagadzirwa kuitira kuti vakomana ava vabve pa nzara vasati vazviparadza.
AMY GOODMAN: Uye mumutsara, Staughton Lynd, zvavanoda ndezvipi?
STUGHTON LYND: Zvavanoda ndezvekuti vave neropafadzo dzakafanana nedzevamwe vasungwa vakatongerwa rufu, mukana wekuve pedyo nevamwe vasungwa kwemaawa akati kuti pasvondo, uye kushanyirwa kamwe chete nevadikani vavo.
AMY GOODMAN: Staughton Lynd, patiri kupedzisa, wanga uine chekuita nekuratidzira, nemukadzi wako Alice, nenharaunda yakakura yekurwisa hondo, kurwira kodzero dzevanhu, basa rako remujeri kwemakumi emakore. Nhasi, muna 2011, apo tiri kupinda mugore rino idzva, chii chinokupa tariro?
STUGHTON LYND: Zvakanaka, chekutanga, rega ndikuudze izvo zvisingandipe tariro. Ini handisi mumwe weavo vakamira mumutsara wekupomera Mutungamiri Obama, nekuti ndinonzwa kuti tatadza kugadzira kudzvanyirira kwaPresident kubva pazasi. Uye ini ndinofunga kumashure kwekutanga '60s apo bato rekodzero dzevanhu rakanyanya kusemeswa neMutungamiriri wenyika John Kennedy uye Gweta Guru Robert Kennedy sezvo chero munhu angave aine Mutungamiri Obama panguva ino, asi isu taiva nekufamba. Takamiririra vangangovhota. Uye vezvematongerwo enyika ivavo vakachinja nzira.
Uye ndinofunga kuti-ini handizivi kana iwe ungati izvi zvinondipa tariro, Amy, asi zvirinani izano rangu regore ra 2011. Ngatiisei pfungwa pakugadzira kufamba pasi pasi. Ndinoreva, semuenzaniso, kana VaObama vakakurudzira zvandinotenda kuti inzira yeMickey Mouse yekuongorora mamiriro ekuchengetedza varwi vevavengi kuGuantánamo, ndinofunga tinofanira kumuvhenekera toti, "Izvi hazvisi kuzozviita." Uye kunze kwokunge taita izvozvo, tinomusiya kupi? Anomanikidzwa kumanikidzwa kubva munzira imwe chete. Uye mutsigiri wese anofarira kutarisa mhiri kwetafura oti, “Zvakanaka, munoziva, dai zviri kwandiri, ndaigona kubvumirana nemi. Asi vangandibvarura kuita zvidimbu kunze uko." Isu tinofanirwa kugadzira mafambiro pasi apa. Uye handisi kutaura nezve kuita chero chinhu chatinoudzwa neMoveOn.org kuti tiite painternet. Ndiri kutaura nezve nhanho yechokwadi-uye-faira kufamba kana boka rekupinda-ne-mafaera mafambiro anoisa kunze kudiwa kwedu kwerumwe rudzi rwenyika.
AMY GOODMAN: Staughton Lynd, ndinoda kukutendai zvikuru nekubatana nesu.
STUGHTON LYND: Mufaro wangu, Amy.
ZNetwork inopihwa mari chete kuburikidza nerupo rwevaverengi vayo.
dhoneta