Kwakabva: Democracy Now!
Hutongi hweBiden hwakavimbisa mabhiriyoni ekubatsira mauto kuUkraine kubvira Russia yakapinda mukupera kwaKukadzi, uye Munyori wezvekudzivirirwa kweUS, Lloyd Austin, akataura svondo rino kuti chinangwa cheUS "kuona Russia ichipera simba." Munyori uye muongorori Anatol Lieven, mukuru paQuincy Institute for Responsible Statecraft, anoyambira kuti kunze kwekunge paine chisungo chekuwana gadziriso yekunetsana, inogona kuve hondo yevamiriri veUS ine "zvikuru, zvine njodzi zvinogona kuitika."
AMY MURUME AKANAKA: Ichi chi Dememocracy Zvino!, democracynow.org, Nhoroondo Yehondo uye Rugare. Ndiri Amy Goodman, naNermeen Shaikh.
Ukraine inoti Russia iri kuwedzera kurwisa kwayo kumabvazuva kweUkraine. Izvi zvinouya apo Munyori Mukuru weUnited Nations, VaAntรณnio Guterres, vari kushanyira Kyiv nhasi kunosangana nemutungamiri weUkraine, Volodymyr Zelensky. Pakutanga nhasi, the NATO Munyori Mukuru Jens Stoltenberg akazivisa NATO nyika dzakavimbisa uye dzakapa mari inodarika mabhiriyoni masere emadhora muzvombo nerubatsiro rwemauto kuUkraine. NeChitatu, Russian Vladimir Putin akayambira nyika dzekuMadokero nezve kupindira muhondo yeUkraine.
PRESIDENT VLADIMIR PUTIN: [yakashandurwa] Kana mumwe munhu akasarudza kupindira muzviitiko zvezvino muUkraine kubva kunze uye kugadzira kutyisidzira kusingagamuchirwi kweRussia, saka vanofanirwa kuziva kuti mhinduro yedu, kutsiva kwedu kurova, kuchava mheni nekukurumidza, nekukurumidza. Tine zvese zvishandiso zveizvi, zvekuti hapana mumwe munhu angazvikudza nazvo izvozvi. Uye isu hatizvirumbidzi. Tichazvishandisa kana zvichidiwa. Uye munhu wose anofanira kuziva nezvazvo. Takaita sarudzo dzese panyaya iyi.
AMY MURUME AKANAKA: Mashoko aPutin anouya mushure mekunge gurukota rake rezvekunze rapomera United States nevadyidzani vayo kurwa hondo muUkraine. Putin akasanganawo nemunyori mukuru weUN neChipiri.
Takabatanidzwa iye zvino naAnatol Lieven, mukuru paQuincy Institute for Responsible Statecraft, munyori wemabhuku akawanda pamusoro peRussia uye yaimbova Soviet republic, kusanganisira. Ukraine uye Russia. Yake yazvino Piece ine musoro wekuti "Njodzi dzinotyisa dzekusundidzira US proxy war muUkraine."
Tsanangura, Anatol, zvaunoreva nehondo yeproxy. Uye chii chiri kuitika iye zvino?
ANATOL LIEVEN: Zvakanaka, chikonzero chandanyora chidimbu ichi chaive chekupindura chirevo cheSecretary of Defense Lloyd Austin chekuti zano reUS rave kunetesa Russia kuburikidza nehondo muUkraine. Uye, iwe unoziva, chaizvoizvo, ndizvo zvakaita hondo yeproxy, iwe unoziva, US ichiedza kushandisa hondo muUkraine kwete kungodzivirira Ukraine, asi kune chinangwa chakakura.
Chinhu chinoshungurudza pamusoro peizvi ndechekuti izvi zvave zvichiperekedzwa nekuwedzera kutaura muU.S. uye NATO nezvekubatsira Ukraine kuhwina. Zvino, kana izvo zvichireva kubatsira Ukraine kurwisa Russia kuti imire uye kudzivirira Russia kukunda Ukraine, saka izvo, zvechokwadi, zviri pamutemo zvachose. Asi pave nemazano ekuti kuhwina kunoreva kubatsira Ukraine kuti itorezve nzvimbo yese yayakarasikirwa neRussia kubva muna 2014, kusanganisira nharaunda iyo Russia yave kuona sechikamu chenyika yayo. Izvo, hongu, zvinomiririra kukwira kwakanyanya kwezvinangwa zveU.S., zvine njodzi, zvine njodzi mhedzisiro.
NEMEEN SHAIKH: Anatol, mubvunzo ndewekuti maAmerican vanofunga here kuti hurumende kunze kwaPutin inogona kunge ichida kusiya nzvimbo, kusanganisira Crimea.
ANATOL LIEVEN: Zvakanaka, kana vachifunga izvozvo, vakarasika zvachose. Kana iwe ukatarisa maonero eruzhinji rweRussia, kana iwe ukatarisa zvirevo zveiyo yese yeRussia yakagadzwa zvematongerwo enyika, kusanganisira, nenzira, Alexei Navalny, mutungamiri weRussia anopikisa, vese vava kuona Crimea sechikamu chenyika yeRussia. ndima. Uye izvi, nenzira, zvinoita sekunge zvinotsigirwa nehuwandu hukuru hwehuwandu hweCrimea, iyo ine dzinza rakawanda reRussia. Saka, kwete, ndinoreva, kuunza kuzvipira kweRussia kuCrimea, iwe unofanirwa kuparadza nyika yeRussia. Zvino, panguva iyoyo, kutyisidzira kweRussia kwekushandisa zvombo zvenyukireya zvinotanga kutaridzika zvishoma sebluster uye zvishoma sechinhu chinogona kuitika.
AMY MURUME AKANAKA: Uye izvo zvingadziviswa sei, Anatol Lieven?
ANATOL LIEVEN: Zvakanaka, pfungwa yangu ndeyokuti zvinokwanisika kuti kana Russia inogona kukunda yose yeDonbas, izvo zvisati zvamboita - munoziva, mauto eRussia anga achisiririsa, kutaura chokwadi. Asi kana ichikwanisa kuita izvozvo, chaizvo nekuti Russia yatambura zvakanyanya, Russia inogona kumira uye kupa kumisa pfuti nenhaurirano.
Uye hurumende yeUkraine yakaisa mberi zvikumbiro zvine musoro zvekugadzirisa runyararo, zvichibva pachibvumirano chekusarerekera uye kubatanidza nyaya dzenharaunda dzehurukuro dzenguva yemberi, uye zvakanyanya kufambisa hondo yeUkraine kundima yezvemadiplomate sezvaiitwa nekupinda kweTurkey kuCyprus. 45 makore apfuura. Saka, semaonero angu, ingave nzira ine musoro kuti nyika dzekuMadokero dzitsigire - nemamwe mashoko, kutsigira kudzivirirwa kweUkraine nerusununguko rweUkraine uye kuzvitonga, asi kwete kushandisa Ukraine pazvinangwa zveU.S kana zveUkraine. Nokuti zvakare yeuka kuti chinhu chimwe chete kuUkraine kudzivirira maguta ayo kurwiswa neRussia, izvo zvavakaita nekubudirira kukuru uye hunyanzvi uye ushingi, uye, chokwadi, nerubatsiro rwezvombo zvekuMadokero; inyaya yakasiyana chaizvo kuti Ukraine iende pane inogumbura uye kuyedza kurwisa nzvimbo dzeRussia dzakacherwa. Panguva iyoyo, Ukraine pachayo icharasikirwa zvakanyanya maererano nevakakuvara.
Asi zvakare, hongu, zvakataurwa naLloyd Austin, uye izvo zvehurumende yeBritish, zvakare, zvinoreva hondo ichaenderera mberi zvachose, munoziva, hondo isingaperi neRussia. Iwe unoziva, isu tinofanirwa kubvunza kuti izvo zvichaitei kuUkraine, zvazvichaita kuhupfumi hwenyika, uye zvazvichaita kuEurope.
NEMEEN SHAIKH: Anatol, pamubvunzo uyu wekupihwa kwezvombo, zvombo zvekuMadokero zvinopa kuUkraine, Russia yakaedza kukanganisa zvinhu izvi kumatunhu eUkraine, asi havasati vazviita, semuenzaniso, munzira dzekugovera - kuburikidza nenzira dzekugovera muPoland. Chii chaizoitika kana Russia yaizotanga kuita izvozvo?
ANATOL LIEVEN: Zvakanaka, kuti, chokwadi, kungava kurwisa a NATO nhengo. Paizove nekumanikidzwa kukuru, ndinofunga, muAmerica kuvhura nzvimbo isina kubhururuka, munoziva, kutumira American Air Force kuti iite muUkraine. Ndege dzeAmerica dzaizopfurwa pasi, uye vatyairi vendege vakaurayiwa, nemabhatiri ezvombo zvemuRussia pachayo, izvo zvinogona kuvhara nzvimbo zhinji dzeUkraine. Zvingatora nguva yakareba sei kuti America isati yatanga kurwisa mabhatiri aya munharaunda yeRussia?
Iwe waizove nemamiriro ezvinhu umo United States neRussia vaive - kana ingangoita United States uye NATO vaipfurana munzvimbo yemumwe nemumwe - munoziva, masimba maviri ane zvombo zvenyukireya ane kugona pakati pawo kuparadza vanhu. Ndizvo chaizvo mamiriro ezvinhu ekuti zvizvarwa zvevatungamiri veUS panguva yeCold War zvakatora nehanya zvikuru kudzivirira, nekuti njodzi dzakanyanya. Zvino, ikoko hakuna kureva munzira ipi neipi kunzwira urombo kutonga kweSoviet, udzvinyiriri hweSoviet, udzvinyiriri hwechikomonisiti muEastern Europe. Kwaingove kuratidzwa kwekuzivikanwa kwechokwadi chenjodzi dzinotyisa dzinosanganisirwa mukurwisana kwakananga nemauto neMoscow.
AMY MURUME AKANAKA: Anatol Lieven -
NEMEEN SHAIKH: Anatol, iwe wakataura kuti Ukraine yakanga yaisa zvirevo zvine musoro maererano nenhaurirano neRussia. Ikozvino, Lavrov achangobva kutaura kuti kubatira maoko kweWest kuUkraine kuri kukanganisa nhaurirano. Russia yakamira papi pamubvunzo wekutaurirana rugare neUkraine? Ndezvipi zvavanoda? Uye izvo zvinodikanwa zvava pedyo sei kuti zvizadziswe?
ANATOL LIEVEN: Zvakanaka, pakupera kwemwedzi wapfuura, zvaiita sekunge mativi maviri aya ari kuswedera pedyo neizvi uye Russia yakanga yasiya zvibodzwa zvayo zvikuru muUkraine. Uye Mutungamiri Zelensky nehurumende yeUkraine vakazivisa kuda kwavo kusaina chibvumirano chekusarerekera, chinova chimwe chezvinangwa zvikuru zveRussia, nekuti, sezvakataurwa naZelensky, kubvira. NATO akanga aramba kubvuma Ukraine, munoziva, wadii kusaina chibvumirano chekusava nekwavakarerekera, uye, hongu, vimbiso yakasimba chaizvo, vimbiso dzepasirese, yehutongi hweUkraine uye chengetedzo?
Iye zvino, kubva ipapo, zviri pachena kuti Russia iri kuedza kuita kutora nzvimbo yakazara yeDonbas kumabvazuva kweUkraine, nokuti Russia yakaziva rusununguko rweDonbas republics munzvimbo yakazara yeDonbas asi haisati yakwanisa kukunda. yose yeDonbas. Zvino, kwandiri zvinoita sekuti uhwu ndihwo hushoma hunodiwa naPutin kuti vakwanise kuwana kuti - zvakanaka, kunyanya, kunyepedzera kuvanhu vekuRussia kuti hondo ine njodzi iyi yanga iri imwe mhando yekukunda kweRussia. Saka, izvo, ndinofunga, ndizvo izvo mauto eRussia ari kuedza kuita.
Uye kana vakakwanisa kuzadzisa izvo - zvisina chokwadi, asi, zvakadaro, vari kufambira mberi - saka tinofanira kuona kuti Russia inozoitei, kuti ingave yakamira uye ichipa kumisa kurwa kana kuedza kuenderera mberi. Mumwe haakwanise kutaura chokwadi, asi ndinofunga, nekuda kwekukuvadzwa kukuru kweRussia yakatambura uye kusagoneka kwavakasangana nako kwekutora maguta makuru eUkraine, ndinofunga kuti zvinogoneka kuti munhu azoona kuyedza kutsva kweRussia panhaurirano. kugadzirisa.
AMY MURUME AKANAKA: Unogona here kutaura nezve mukana wekuti iende kunze - kwete chete zvingangoitika, ndinoreva, kubhomba kweRussia kuTransnistria, kukosha kweMoldova kuva nechokuita neizvi, uye kuti zvinorevei, pamwe chete nazvo, zvakazara - wakanyora pamusoro peizvi โ Ndiri kureva kuti, Secretary of Defence Austinโs change of rhetoric โ W and W, right? - kukunda uye kupera simba. Ndiyo nhanho itsva izvozvi.
ANATOL LIEVEN: Zvakanaka, kuMoldova, zvakaoma kutaura zviri kuitika. Ehe, iwe wakatyisidzirwa nemukuru weRussia kuti ayambuke Ukraine kuti atsigire iyo Transnistrian breakaway republic inotsigirwa neRussia.
AMY MURUME AKANAKA: Zvakanaka here kutaura kuti Russia yakabhomba? Tinoziva here?
ANATOL LIEVEN: Hatizivi. Uye kana zvasvika kune iyo shongwe yekutaurirana muTransnistria, ndinofunga kuti zvinogoneka kuti yaive maUkraine, nekuda kwezvikonzero zviri pamutemo, nekuti, chokwadika, njere dzeRussia dziri kushandisa Transnistria sehwaro. Saka, isu hatinyatso kujekesa zviri kuitika ipapo.
Asi njodzi huru, inoratidzika kwandiri, iri muCaucasus, nokuti neuto reRussia rakanyatsorovererwa ikozvino muUkraine, Georgia inogona kutora mukana wekuedza kudzosa nharaunda, nzvimbo dzakaparadzana dzinotsigirwa neRussia. Uye saka zvinogona kuita Azerbaijan. Inogona kuedza kutora Nagorno-Karabakh yese, nharaunda yeArmenia iyo varidzi veRussia vanochengetedza rugare. Uye ipapo waigona kuona kuwedzera kukuru kwehondo kumwewo. Uye, nenzira, iwe unoziva, kunyangwe West -
AMY MURUME AKANAKA: Masekondi gumi.
ANATOL LIEVEN: Ah, zvakanaka, rangarira, ndinoreva, kune vakawanda vakashata veArmenians muAmerica vasingafarire nebudiriro iyi.
ZNetwork inopihwa mari chete kuburikidza nerupo rwevaverengi vayo.
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