Anosvika nenguva kune cafe yeAlba Hotel mune imwe off-white guayabera. Paanongogara pasi, gurukota Navarro, sekuzivikanwa kwaakaitwa kubva pakutanga kweBolivarian Revolution, anotanga kutaura. Vamwe vanhu vari mucafe, vanomuziva kubva paakanga achitenderera mikova yakasimudzwa yesimba rehurumende, vanotora mukana uyu kumukwazisa noushamwari, vazhinji vavo vari kure zvishoma.
Mumwe musikana zvisinei anowira patafura yedu nesimba remvura zhinji ndokuzvisuma amene nokutinhira kwakajeka kwegochas [VokuMadokero, veAndes] somubetseri womutevedzeri wemutevedzeri Rosalba Vivas Briceño, “unoziva?”
Anoramba achikumbira Hector Navarro kuti ave godfather [mukuru wepatron] wechiitiko chake chekupedza kudzidza kubva pachirongwa chechikoro cheEducative Innovation chePedagogic University muCaracas (UPEL). “Uri mudzidzisi, handiti?” Anobvunza kudaro.
"Kwete," Navarro anomururamisa neruremekedzo, "Ndiri injiniya."
Mhinduro yake inobudisa kunyarara kwakakomba kunongotora nguva pfupi, asi musikana anoratidza kusada kurasikirwa nemukana. “Izvozvo hazvina kukosha. Ndinoziva kuti munoziva nezvedzidzo. Takabvunzawo mutungamiri weNational Assembly [Diosdado Cabello], asi haasati atipa mhinduro. Chokwadi hauna kubatikana kudaro, purofesa. Ndapota, bvuma. Ndipe phone number dzako."
Muzvinafundo Navarro anokurudzira kuti anosimbirira kuna Diosdado, uye oregedza mutsara unozorembera patafura yedu pasara yebvunzurudzo yedu: “Ndakasvibiswa. Unoda kuti joke rive pauri here?" Kunyemwerera kwake kweushamwari hakuperi.
Musikana wacho paanonyangarika, purofesa Navarro anotaura pachena kuti, “Nei ndichifanira kuva mwari wekupedza kudzidza kwavo? Vanogona kupedzisira vatadza, kana kudzima mwenje pakati pechiitiko. Izvo zvakaitika, muchiitiko cheLuctec muCoro, uye zvakare mune chimwe chivakwa muCentral Park. Asi izvi zvese anecdotes, chikamu chepakati pevashandi vepakati. "
Tainted. Aya ndiwo manzwiro emurume uyo mumakore mana asina kukanganiswa, kubva 1994 kusvika mukukunda kwesarudzo kwebato reMVR muna 1998, akagara pasi kamwe pavhiki naComandante Hugo Chavez, Jorge Giordani, lieutenant Rafael Isea uye aimbova gavhuna weApure, Jesus Aguilarte, kuti vakurukure matanho ehungwaru uye ane hunyanzvi anodiwa kuvaka ruzhinji rutsva rwakakurumbira muVenezuela.
Rufu rwaChavez, muna Kurume we2013, rwakaburitsa mamwe madutu mashoma pane chinzvimbo uye faira re chavismo (s). Iyo inonyanya kuzivikanwa, kubva pakubuda kwaJorge Giordani kubva muUshumiri hwekuronga, uye pamwe chete naye kuputika kunenge kwakaringana kweaimbove gurukota Navarro kubva kuNational Management ye [inotonga bato resocialist] PSUV, yakaburitswa chaizvo naDiosdado Cabello, mhosva yekukumbira kuti chinzvimbo chaGiordani chikurukurwe, mutsamba yakashambadzirwa newebhusaiti rebelion.org muna Nyamavhuvhu 2014. Nhasi, nyaya yake yaunzwa kuDare Rinoranga, izvo zvinomutadzisa kuita zvematongerwo enyika mumapoka ebato rake.
Navarro akanyora sumo yebhuku razvino raJorge Giordani, Encounters and Unencounters neBolivarian Construction (ichiri isiri kutengeswa). Mundima yechipiri anoti Giordani anogona kutariswa zvinhu zvakawanda, asi kwete semutengesi.
Pfungwa dzeava varume “vakasvibiswa” vakabviswa muchitima chehurumende dzinoita sedzinotenderera patsika, hondo yakaunza Giordani pachake kuti ataure kuti zvisarudzo zvisina musoro zvakadaro “zvakapotsa zvatiita chiseko cheLatin America.”
Nderipi basa raHector Navarro panguva ino?
Ndave ndiri muboka rechimurenga kubvira ndiine makore 14, kubvira muna 1963, pandakanga ndiri kuchikoro chesekondari. Takaronga muzinda wevadzidzi pavakarambidzwa neBazi Redzidzo. Tiri kutaura nezvemutungamiri wenyika Romulo Betancourt. Pashure pacho ndakanga ndava mudzidzi paCentral University, munguva yevarwi vehondo. Ipapo, sapurofesa weyunivhesiti, uye somutezo wedare rechikoro, dare ravadzidzisi nedare reyunivhesiti, ndakava anobatanidzwa naHugo Chavez. Ndakanga ndisingadi basa roushumiri kuti ndiite chimwe chezvinhu izvozvo. Ndakaita basa rangu rezvematongerwo enyika ipapo uye ndicharamba ndichizviita iye zvino. Nenzira ipi? Ndinosangana nenharaunda, mapoka, uye midzi yepati. Ndinofarira kuronga pamwe chete.
Ndeipi meseji yaunotumira kune militant chavista?
Kunyanya kuti mabhesi ebato anofanirwa kudzoreredza kutonga kwavo bato. Kunyangwe mutungamiri Chavez, muhurukuro dzakasiyana siyana uye hurukuro, vakakoka kuumbwa kwemubatanidzwa kuti kutariswe. Uye ndizvo zvandiri kuita, kukoka grassroots echimurenga uye socialist bato kuti democratic yomukati muenzaniso hapana COOPTACION, apo vanhu vanogona kutaura pachavo mhosva maonero haapo. Ndiri kukurudzira kumukirana kwemabhesi ebato, kuti varambe vachiita chimurenga, kuti chimurenga chisarasikirwe.
Ndeipi mamiriro ePSUV panguva ino?
Kwakanga kuri kukanganisa kukuru kuregeredza zvaidiwa nevamwe varwi vakaita saAna Elisa Osorio neni izvo vatungamiriri vebato vanofanira kusangana nazvo. Mushure mekufa kwaPresident Chavez, vakawedzera kuremerwa, uye kunyange mwedzi yaipera pasina vatungamiriri kusangana, apo taiwanzosangana vhiki nevhiki. [Misangano yevhiki nevhiki] ndizvo zvakanga zvarayirwa naChavez, kudzivisa kutorwa kwezvisarudzo pasina kubvunzana uye kushandiswa kwevanhu mukukurudzira sarudzo chete.
Munofunga kuti bato iri kupatsanurwa nevanhu here?
Vawedzera kuparadzana. Haasi Hector Navarro chete akazvitaura, Hugo Chavez akazvitaurawo muna Ndira 2011. Kubva 1994 takanga tichisangana neComandante tichitaura nezvekukosha kwekukunda musarudzo. Bato rinofanirwa kukunda musarudzo, asi kana bato richinge rakunda musarudzo chete hazvireve kuti ndereChimurenga. Democratic Action [vanopikisa] vakazviona sevakuru, vachikunda musarudzo dzose, asi vakanga vasiri bato rechimurenga. Bato rinongoda kukunda musarudzo risingaite revolution rinozviitisa. Uye ini ndinofunga kuti, munzira dzakawanda, ndizvo zviri kuitika muPSUV.
Pane chikonzero here chekusiyanisa hurumende nechimurenga?
Muchirevo chepfungwa, hurumende haisi iyo shanduko. Chimurenga hachibudi kubva kuhurumende, chinobuda kubva pasi, kubva kumagariro evanhu, avo vanozosvika pamasimba. Simba risina kumbozara, chaizvoizvo. PDVSA nhasi haisi yekuchinja uye haina kumbobvira yaitika. Dzimwe nzvimbo dzaive dzakagarwa, asi iyo PDVSA ine huori yatiri kuona nhasi, ine vashandi vakasungwa, vakuru vakuru vakapinda mukati memakore aya marefu, handifunge kuti tingaidaidza kuti revolutionary.
Chimwe chezvinhu zvinotaurwa naJorge Giordani ndechekuti hurumende inofanirwa kudyidzana nevanhu nenzira yechokwadi. Kana tikaomerwa, tinofanira kuudza vanhu kuti pane matambudziko. Kana tichifanira kusunga mabhandi ezvigaro, hurumende inofanira kuyambira vanhu, kunyanya mutungamiri wenyika- tinofanira kusunga mabhande edu. Hazviiti kutapira piritsi, hazvina kunaka kuedza kuvanza matambudziko makuru.
Nei vachivharidzira dambudziko racho?
Iko kukanganisa kwezvematongerwo enyika, kukanganisa.
Munofunga kuti vanotya chimwe chikwata chevanhu here?
Tinofanira kunzwisisa kuti kune nhevedzano yezvinhu zvekunze zvinoparira chawakataura nemazvo kuti dambudziko. Isu tiri pasi perudzi rwekushungurudzwa kwehupfumi, izvo zvisingangozvipa mari chete. Mubvunzo wandinozvibvunza ndewekuti isu isu pachedu takaparira kushungurudzwa kwehupfumi hwekunze, nekuda kwekusanganiswa kwezvikanganiso, kusakwana, kusanzwisisana. Isu takabatsira (uye ini ndinozviisa munzvimbo dzechimurenga uye hurumende pano) kugadzira mamiriro aya. Ndinozvitaura nemutoro, uye kuzvipira kudzivirira shanduko yedu uye kudzivirira kudonha kwayo, nekuti ndinoda kuti kurambe kuchiitwa revolution munyika ino.
Chimurenga chichapera here kana hurumende iyi ikawa?
Kwete. Izvi zvakafanana nekubvunza kana chiKristu chakafa naKristu. ChiKristu chakatanga kufa apo Constantine akatora chitendero, apo chiKristu pachacho chakashanduka kuva simba, ndokusiya nheyo dzacho; vanhu.
Uye handizvo zviri kuitika here?
Hongu, chaizvo. Handisi kuzoshoropodza kushandiswa kwemufananidzo waChavez, nekuti ndiro guta guru rechimurenga. Asi ndiri kutyira kuwandisa kwekushandiswa kwayo, kwatingati chipfambi chemufananidzo waChavez. Pakatangwa mushandirapamwe wekubatanidza nhaka yaChavez nebhuku rebhuruu, kwaive kukanganisa. Iro bhuku rebhuruu rinoenderana nedanho reChavez iro raive nerudo, shungu, Bolivarian, yakazvimiririra, mune yemauto maitiro eNasser, Velasco, Alvarado kana Torrijos. Asi panguva iyoyo Chavez haana kumbotaura nezvesocialism kana capitalism, nezvekurwa kwemakirasi. Chandinoreva kutaura ndechekuti Chavez akashanduka. Saka, chii chiri nhaka yake? Bhuku rebhuruu kana Strike at the Helm [kutaura] paakati commune yakanga isati yaitwa uye anodana Rafael Ramirez nevamwe vashumiri?
Apa Chavez paakareurura kuti hurumende yakashandisa izwi rekuti socialist nenzira yehutsotsi?
Ikozvino pane dambudziko rakatokura ririkuitika. Dambudziko harisi chete kushandisa mufananidzo waChavez, asi mukushandisa zvisiri izvo pfungwa dzake.
Mukutaura kweStrike at the Helm, Chavez anobvuma kuti chimurenga changa changowana zvimedu zvega uye chakanga chisati chagadzira chokwadi. Saka. Dambudziko ndiro ragara riripo here kana kuti dambudziko iri chibereko chehurumende iripo?
Chavez akashoropodza digressions ipapo, kwete iyo modhi pachayo.
Ndinodzokorora: Ichi chiitiko chedambudziko chemuenzaniso wedu [wezvematongerwo enyika] kana kuti kutonga kwakashata kwehurumende nhasi?
Kutya isu tese tine, njodzi inoonekwa nevanhu ndeyekuti tinodzokera ku4 [republic, yapfuura neoliberal rule]. Chinhu chimwe muenzaniso, chatinoda, uye chimwe ndicho chatakashandisa. Hurumende yakafanana nemotokari; kana ukairega ichienda, inobhoti saka ndinoshamisika, pane socialism here pano? Aihwa.
Iyo modhi yakapa nzira yekugadzirisa mari yeruzhinji. Pane imwe nguva iyo modhi yakaunza kumwe kugadzikana. Uye isu tinofanira kuva nechisungo chekuramba tichivimbisa. Ini ndinosimbirira, isu tine chikonzero chechisimba chekunze, asi semuenzaniso, chiziviso chakaitwa naGiordani maererano ne22.5 bhiriyoni emadhora asipo. Chii chaitika? Dai pasina rondedzero yemakambani ephantom, mazhinji acho achiri akavanzwa, zvingadai zvakasiyana. Makambani maviri kana matatu chete akabuda pachirongwa ichi, chinomiririra mamiriyoni maviri kana matatu akarasika emadhora. Pane vamwe vose, hapana anoziva.
Sei?
Uri kundibvunza? Ndiwo mubvunzo wehuori, kwete wesocialism semuenzaniso. Iro dambudziko revanhu vakabva vaenda kuUS vachinakidzwa nemadhora avakaba nawo. Tiri kutaura nezvemabhangi, vashandi vehurumende, naRafael Isea, aigara vhiki imwe neimwe kwemakore mana patafura duku iyo apo Chavez, Giordani, Aguilarte neni taizotaura nezvekuvaka chirongwa cheBolivarian, uye nhasi ari kuUnited States. . Uye refutenendi Alejandro Andrade? Ari kuUS zvakare achinakidzwa nehupfumi hwake. Uye havasi kupomerwa ikoko [paWhite House rondedzero yezviremera zvakatemerwa], zvingadaro sei?
Uyewo havasi kupomerwa pano vatengesi.
Zvakanaka ndinofunga vatengesi.
Uye Hector Navarro?
Ndiri pano. Ndakauya nemota yangu kuinterview iyi. Ndiri pano, ndichiratidza chiso changu, pamberi pechimurenga, ndichidzivirira nhaka yaChavez.
Mhosva yepfungwa haisi nyaya itsva mukati mebato.
Handisati ndamboonekwa ndichitaura nezvematambudziko emukati kunze kwebato. Asi vakatitorera nzvimbo iyoyo. Ikozvino handina nzvimbo. Ana Elisa Osorio havanawo imwe. Rodrigo Cabezas mumwewo asina. Uye isu hatitaure nezve Giordani.
Uye Vanesa Davies [mutori wenhau wepro-Chavez akaparadzaniswa nePDVSA mushure mekutaura kwakawanda kupikisa mutemo]?
Bva, chokwadi ndechokuti akarega kuuya kumisangano kare kare. Mario Silva zvakare. Asi ndinogona kukuudza kuti Rafael Ramirez haana kumboenda kwavari uye akatenderwa zvakadaro. Izvozvo zvinofanira kuzvitsanangura.
Asi Ramirez akabviswa muPDVSA uye nevatungamiriri vakasiyana. Akatobviswa kuVenezuela, uye ari kuNew York izvozvi.
Ndinofunga kuti kufambira mberi kwakakosha uye ndinozviziva. Ndingashora sei izvozvo? Chandichashoropodza ndechekuti nguva yavakamurega agare.
PDVSA yakaramba iri bhokisi dema re chavismo?
Zvakangoitika naGladys Parada zvinorwadza. Mukati memabhokisi matema ePDVSA mune zvemukati zvekutengesa. Ngarava dzepeturu dzaiti dzaitakura 200 zviuru zvemadhiramu asi chokwadi dzine zviuru mazana matatu. Nhamba dzine chekuita nekushandiswa uye kutengeserana kwezvinhu zvinopisa hazvienderane. Ndiri kutaura nezve peturu nedhiziri. David Paravisini anoti 300% yedu yemukati peturu chigadzirwa inosiya nyika miganhu. Mari iyoyo yaigona kutakurwa nengarava chete, kwete nepanyika.
Chokwadi ndechekuti Rafael Ramirez haachadzori PDVSA. Giordani anopindirana kupi munyaya iyi?
Handizive, Giordani aripo. Kuita zvinhu zvake… Rimwe rematambudziko echimurenga nderekuti tiri kurarama munguva yekusatonga. Ndapedza basa rekubvunza vanhu vari pakati pe200 ne300 kuti maministries mangani. Hapana anoziva. Kune vakaita se 27. Rafael Ramirez, chaizvoizvo, akabata runyoro rurefu rwe etc. mushure mezita rake.
Unogona kuvimba nehurumende yakadai?
Haisi nyaya yekuvimba. Chokwadi ndechokuti handizivi vashumiri vakawanda, handitombozivi kuti ndivanaani. Vanhu vachanyunyutira ani? Ndiani achatonga nhoroondo nokuda kwezvisarudzo izvi? Mutungamiri Maduro akataura nguva pfupi yadarika kuti achatora chigaro chehupfumi, zvirinani ari kuzviisa pamberi pazvo.
Munoona sei kuenzana pakati pemubatanidzwa wemauto nehurumende iyi?
Kana mukandibvunza, hazvina basa kuti ndiani arikutungamirira munhu asiri chizvarwa kana kubva kumauto. Chinondinetsa ndechekuti ukaisa munhu pachinzvimbo nekuti anobva kumauto. Icho hachisi vimbiso yechinhu chero chipi zvacho.
Iwe haufungi here kuti mushandirapamwe wekukwira kwemutengo wepeturu unokwezva kune neoliberal nzira yekufunga? Iyo nyaya inozoderedzwa kusvika padambudziko remitengo yekugadzira?
Mumwe anofanirwa kudzidza, zvikasadaro kite yako inokanganisika. Ndizvo zvakaitwa naChavez. Aive neruoko rukuru rwekuita zano. Ndicho chikonzero nei kutsoropodza kwakanzwika pamusoro pema<em>socialist areperas [zvimire zvinodhura zve<em>arepa], somuenzaniso. Kuti utende vanhu kuti peturu inoda kusimuka iwe unofanirwa kutevedzera nzira yekufunga inobatsira kuenderera mberi nekuvaka socialism. Haikwanise kungova mubvunzo wekuti imarii, nekuti mune mamwe mamiriro ezvinhu inogona kupihwa kure, senge hutano uye dzidzo. Nyaya ndeyekuenderera mberi nekudzidzisa kune socialism.
Rinongova dambudziko rekuumbwa [kwezvematongerwo enyika] kana nharo dzedu dzichienderana nemharidzo yeCedice [sangano rezvematongerwo enyika]?
Kana ukasaisa hanya inodiwa pane izvo… Chavez akati dhiyabhorosi aive mune zvese. Zvinoita sezvisingakoshi, asi izvo zvinhu zvinotanga kuumba pfungwa. Kupfuura izvozvo, apo mutungamiri Maduro anoti 'zvisinei-zvinei-mamiriyoni akawanda kune chero chinodiwa- chakabvumidzwa!' Uye ipapo pane kuomerwa kuti chirongwa chienderere mberi- ndeipi meseji ipapo? Vari kutigadzirira here mamiriro ezvinhu akafanana neatiri kusangana nawo iye zvino? Kana kuti vari kuti, “tine mari yakachengetwa,” kana kuti, “Mwari achagovera?”
Mamiriro acho haagone kugadziriswa nekuunza zviwanikwa zvisipo, kana kusakwana. Iwe unofanirwa kushamwaridzana kurongeka kwemari uye kusarudza zvinokosheswa nehwaro hwakakwana hwerutsigiro rwemagariro, hunonyatsomiririrwa mumabhesi ebato. Nekukurukurirana kwakajeka uye kwakajeka.
Unoona mamiriro acho ezvinhu seakaoma?
Ndine shamwari, vabati vepamusoro-soro nemagavhuna, avo vari kushushikana zvikuru nezviri kuitika. Kana bapiro rerudyi rikapinda muhurumende, yangu ichave iri pakati pemisoro yekutanga kukunguruka. Ndinozviziva. Handidi kodzero yekutonga, asi pamusoro pezvose ndinoda kuti tirambe tichishanda takanangana nesocialism.
Ndichadzokorora kwamuri zvandakamboudzwa naAristobulo: kana tichizoita zvinhu sezvavakaita Adecos [nhengo dzeneoliberal, "social democratic" bato reDemocratic Action], zviri nani kuti vazviite ivo pachavo. Hatisi kuzoenderana navo. Huori? Hapana nzira yatichavaenzanisa nayo ipapo, vanozviita zvirinani. Hazvina kukodzera kuedza, kana kuzvipira, hazvina kukodzera kupira Hugo Chavez, kuguma kuita zvinhu nenzira iyo Adecos naCopeyanos vakaita.
Chimurenga chichiri kuitika here?
Chimurenga chinogoneka, asi chinoda kuzvipira. Hatifanire kutsvaga kugutsikana kwenyama chete kwerudzi rwevanhu, nekuti izvo hazviperi. Chakakosha kuzviisa pasi, iko kupfupika kwekuvandudza pachedu. Ndizvo zvakashandirwa naChavez, ndosaka aingotaura dzimwe pfungwa.
Pane chirongwa chemutemo chinopesana nehuwori chatakagadzira pandakanga ndiri mutungamiri wePublic Spending Commission. Yakatenderwa pakutanga kutaurwa ichibva yaiswa pasherufu. Ine chitsauko chakakosha kwazvo pamusoro pekupokana kwezvido. Inoreva zvinhu zvitatu, uye isu tinotosanganisira kurudziro kubva kuUnited Nations pachinhu ichi. Chekutanga, kana iwe uri director, gurukota kana purezidhendi, paunosiya chinzvimbo chako haugone kuoneka semuridzi wemari kana mushandi wekambani yaunohaya uri muhurumende. Kune zvakare mubvunzo wekufungidzira mutero uye wechitatu, wandinofunga kuti wakakosha panguva ino, ndeye nepotism. Zvakaoma kuwana nyaya yehuwori isina chinhu chekudzvinyirirwa; panogara paine mwanakomana, muzukuru, mukoma, mukadzi, mubereki kana muramu. Hapana chinogoneka chesocialism as long paine nepotism, nekuti panogona kuita huori chete.
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