Robert Jensen purofesa muChikoro cheJournalism paYunivhesiti yeTexas. Ndiye munyori we Kubuda: Zvinonyadzisira uye Kuguma kweMasculinity; Mwoyo Wekuchena: Kutarisana Rudzi, Rusaruraganda uye Rusununguko Rwechena; uye Vagari veHumambo: Nhamburiko yeKutora Hunhu Hwedu, pakati pemamwe mabasa. Akataura naAlex Doherty weNLP nezve kutyisidzira kwenjodzi yezvakatipoteredza.
Alex Doherty: Wakanyora kuti: "Kuva mupenyu zvizere nhasi kurarama neshungu, kwete nokuda kwechimiro chomunhu amene munyika asi nokuda kwechimiro chenyika, nokuda kwenyika iri kuparara." Kunyangwe pakati pevanoongorora zvakatipoteredza kashoma kutsanangura mamiriro edu ezvinhu nenzira yeapocalyptic yakadaro. Nei uchifunga kuti zvine musoro kurondedzera nyika seyaparara?
Robert Jensen: Tarisa pane chero chiyero chehutano hunokosha hwepasireseti yatinovimba nayo: kurasikirwa kwevhu repamusoro, kusvibiswa kwemakemikari evhu nemvura, kutsakatika kwemarudzi uye kuderedzwa kwekusiyana-siyana kwezvipenyu, mamiriro emakungwa epasi, matambudziko asingatarisike emarara ane chepfu, uye kushanduka kwemamiriro ekunze. Tarisa uone data, uye nhau dzakaipa kumativi ese. Uye izvi zvose zviri mumamiriro ekuderera kunoshamisa kunouya musimba rakanyanyisa rinowanikwa kubva kumafuta uye gasi rechisikigo, uye kuwedzera kwekuvhiringidzika kwemamiriro ekunze kuchauya kana tikaramba tichipisa matura emarasha achiri akawanda. Hapana mafuta anotsiva pamhene anotendera shanduko yakatsetseka. Izvi zviwanikwa zveecology zvichaonekwa munyika yakaumbwa nehurongwa hwenyika-dzikadzika midzi mukusaenzana kunotyisa kunokonzerwa ne imperialism uye capitalism, izvo zvese zviri kukanganisa zvakasara pamubatanidzwa wedu wevanhu. "Kuputsika" kunoratidzika serondedzero ine musoro yenyika.
Izvi hazvireve kuti pane dambudziko rekupedzisira riri kuuya munguva pfupi, asi ino inguva yeapocalyptic. Shoko rokuti โapocalypseโ harirevi โkuguma.โ Rinobva pashoko rechiGiriki rinoreva kuti โkufukuraโ kana kuti โkusimudza chifukidziro.โ Ino inguva yeapocalyptic nekuti tinoda kusimudza chidzitiro uye tive neushingi hwekutarisa nyika nekuvimbika.
AD: Unofunga kuti nei vakawanda vekuruboshwe vachizeza mutauro wakadaro pavanokurukura nezvezvakatipoteredza?
RJ: Ini handifunge kwete chete vanosiya, asi vanhuwo zvavo, vanonzvenga izvi chokwadi nekuti chokwadi chakashata. Zvinoita sezvinorema kuvanhu vazhinji, nechikonzero chakanaka. Saka, pane kutarisana nazvo, vanhu vanowana nzira dzekunzvenga. Imwe ndeyekuramba kuti pane chikonzero chekunetseka, izvo zvinowanzoitika mutsika. Iyo yakajairika nzira yekunzvenga yandinonzwa kubva kuvanhu vari kuruboshwe ndeye "tekinoroji fundamentalism" - pfungwa yekuti nekuti isu tinoda yakakwirira-simba / yepamusoro-tech mhinduro dzinozotitendera kurarama muchimiro icho vazhinji vedu tajaira. , mhinduro idzodzo dzichawanikwa. Irworwo rwekufunga zvemashiripiti runofadza asi haruitike, nokuda kwezvikonzero zviviri. Kutanga, nepo zvakawanwa navanhu mumazana mashomanene amakore apfuura zvichiorora, zvave zvisiri pamwero unodiwa kururamisa nzira yatiri kufamba nayo; takagadzira matambudziko akura kupfuura kugona kwedu kunzwisisa nekugadzirisa. Chechipiri, izvo zvakawanikwa zvakatsigirwa nefossil-fuel simba risingazovepo kwenguva yakareba, izvo zvinomisa zvinoshamisa izvo zvatichakwanisa kuita kuburikidza nemagetsi-akanyanya epamusoro tekinoroji. Sezvakataurwa nevanhu vakawanda, teknolojia haisi simba; hausi kutsiva simba nehunyanzvi. Tekinoroji inogona kuita kuti mamwe maitiro awedzere kushanda nesimba, asi haigone kugadzira simba kubva mumhepo yakatetepa.
Ndakaita kuti vakawanda vandaishanda navo vandiudze kuti vanobvumirana neimwe kana yese yekuongorora kwangu, asi kuti "vanhu havasati vagadzirira kunzwa izvozvo." Ndinoturikira kureva kuti, "Handisati ndagadzirira kunzwa izvozvo." Ini ndinofunga vazhinji vekuruboshwe vanosiya kutya kwavo kusangana nezvinhu zvakaoma izvi kune "mhomho," asi ivo vasingakwanise kutarisana nazvo.
Chimwe chinhu ndechekuti kutaura kunopenga kwekupedzisira-kwenguva, uko kunobva zvakanyanya kubva kuzvinyorwa zvechitendero, zvinotungamira vanhu vazhinji kuti vasiye nerevo nyaya chero ipi zvayo yekupunzika. Saka, zvakakosha kuve pachena: handisi kufanotaura kuguma kwenyika pane rimwe zuva. Hapana chandiri kufanotaura. Ndiri kungotsanangura izvo vamwe vedu vanotenda kuti ndiyo nzira inogona kuitika yesimba repamusoro-soro/yepamusoro-soro nzanga yatinogara mairi. Uye ini ndiri kukurudzira kuti tirambe tichifunga nzira iyi sezvo isu tichitevera kuruboshwe / feminist tsoropodzo dzehutongi nekutonga, tichitarisira kuti mamwe ekuenzanisa uye ane hunhu emhando yesangano revanhu anogona kutibatsira kubata nekudonha.
AD: Tichifunga nezvekuoma kwemamiriro ezvinhu auri kutsanangura ndezvipi zvinorehwa neruboshwe? Dzimwe nzira dzekuratidzira dzinofanira kusiiwa kuti dzitarise kutyisidzira kwekushanduka kwemamiriro ekunze? Zvikumbiro zvemamwe masisitimu ehupfumi anechokwadi sei segirinhi bio-regionalism kana mubatanidzwa wehupfumi mukati menjodzi yemamiriro ekunze?
RJ: Chekutanga, ndinofunga chirongwa chese chezvematongerwo enyika - chingave chakanangana nekuronga mabasa, kuramba hukuru hwevachena, kodzero dzevakadzi, kurwisa hondo - chinofanira kusanganisira chikamu chezvemagariro. Izvi hazvireve kuti munhu wese anofanira kushandura kutarisa, asi ndinofunga kuti hapana zvematongerwo enyika zvine musoro izvo zvisingazive kusimba kwemamiriro edu ezvinhu uye mukana wekuti vanhu vanotambura zvakanyanya (muUnited States nepasirese) vari kuenda. kutakura dambudziko rekuderera kwezvakatipoteredza. Zvematongerwo enyika zvine chekuita nekuruboshwe/zvevakadzi zvinofanirwa kubatanidza madotsi pese uye pese pazvinogoneka. Heino muenzaniso mumwe uri pachena: Hondo dzehumambo hweUS, dzakazvarwa nehurongwa hwemadzitateguru, dzinoitwa kuti dzitsigire zvido zvemakambani munzvimbo dzakakosha kwazvo dzinogadzira simba pasirese, ayo mazhinji asiri evachena. Kupokana nehondo idzodzo kunoda kushoropodzwa kwehutongi hwechirume, hukuru hwevachena, capitalism, uye hupfumi hwePasirose Hupenyu hunoshayisa vanhu chokwadi chekuti vane hunhu muhondo idzi. Hondo idzodzo dziri kuwedzera zvinoshamisa kusimba uye kuparadza kunogona kuitika kwekuputsika kuri kuuya. Kuitira hanya kururamisira uye kusimba kwezvakatipoteredza kunoda anti-hondo uye anti-empire zvematongerwo enyika. Iko hakuna nzira yekuisa pfungwa pane chimwe chikamu chekusarongeka pasina kunzwisisa aya makuhwa.
Chechipiri, kupfuura nakare kose, โmaruva zana ngaatumbuke.โ Kana tichiziva zvishoma nezvezvichauya, zvakanaka kana vanhu vakatevera nzira dzakasiyana-siyana dzavanonzwa vachikweverwa kwadziri. KuAustin, ndiri kushanda zvakanyanya neboka rimwe chete rinomiririra vashandi vanobva kune dzimwe nyika (Workers Defense Project) uye rimwe rinobatsira vanhu kutanga mabhizinesi emubatanidzwa wevashandi (Third Coast Workers for Cooperation). Hapana boka rakanangana nedambudziko rezvakatipoteredza, asi kune simba rinoshamisa uye mazano mumapoka aya, uye vanogadzira nzvimbo dzekufambisira mberi kutsoropodza kwakarongeka kwe capitalism, hukuru hwevachena, uye patriarchy, zvese nekunzwisisa kwezvakatipoteredza. Zvichida ndezvemuzvarirwo kuti vanhu vade kutenda kuti vakarova ari mhinduro kune a dambudziko, asi ndinotenda kuti matambudziko akaoma kunzwisisa kupfuura zvatinonzwisisa, uye hazvingoitike kuti pave nemhinduro imwe chete asi panogona kunge pasina mhinduro zvachose - kana ne "mhinduro" isu tichireva nzira yekuenderera mberi nehupenyu hwevanhu pasirese. nhanho yayo yazvino. Tinoda zviedzo pamativi ese anotibatsira kufungidzira nzira nyowani dzekuve.
AD: Munguva pfupi yapfuura wanga uchinyora nezve maitiro anoita vanhu mupfungwa kune chokwadi chekushanduka kwemamiriro ekunze. Sei uchifunga kuti inyaya inokosha? Ndeipi mhinduro yako yemanzwiro kune dambudziko revanhu razvino? Ndeapi maitiro awakaona mune vamwe?
RJ: Haisi kungoshanduka kwemamiriro ekunze, hongu, asi matambudziko mazhinji ezvakatipoteredza. Chero ani zvake anoteerera anosungirwa kuva nerumwe rudzi rwemhinduro yemanzwiro. Ndinofunga manzwiro akakosha nekuti isu tiri mhuka dzemanzwiro. Zviri nyore kudaro. Tinogona sei kutarisana nemagumo ehurongwa hwakagadzira hupenyu hwedu uye tisina simba rekuita zvemanzwiro? Hongu, isu tine hunyanzvi hwakagadziridzwa, asi pakupedzisira tiri mhuka dzinonzwa zvakanyanya, kana kupfuura, kupfuura zvatinofunga. Uye kana kufunga nokunzwa zvisiri muitiro wakaparadzana chose chose asi zviri rutivi rwenzira iyo vanhu vanonzwisisa nayo nyika, upenzi kusava nehanya nezviito zvedu zvemirangariro. Hapana chimwe cheizvi chinofanira kuvhiringika neapolitical therapy tsika inotonga muUnited States. Handisi kutaura nezvemanzwiro akaparadzana nezvematongerwo enyika, asi manzwiro anoyerera kubva mukuita zvematongerwo enyika.
Kuti ndikwerete chirevo kubva kushamwari, ndinomuka mangwanani ega ega ndiri mukushungurudzika kukuru. Isu vanhu takapiwa nzvimbo yakasarudzika munyika yakanaka zvisingatsananguriki, uye tiri kuiparadza nekuparadzana. Ini ndinorarama nazvo nekuvaka madhamu epfungwa zvenguva pfupi uye madhiki kuti ndidzore kusuwa ikoko. Asi manzwiro anouya ane simba kubva kune akawanda akasiyana nzira zvekuti hupenyu hunonzwa senge nzira yekugara ichipeta nekufamba uye kuvaka patsva iwo madhamu nemadhiki. Zvimwe zveizvi ndezvemunhu, asi kwandiri basa rezvematongerwo enyika chikamu chakakosha chekugadzirisa. Dai ndisina kuita zvematongerwo enyika, ndaizorasika njere. Nzira chete yandinoziva kubata nayo ndeye kushandisa rimwe resimba rangu mukuedza pamwe chete kuedza kuvaka chimwe chinhu chakanaka.
Pane zvakawanda zvakasiyana-siyana mumarudzi evanhu, zvinoreva kuti pachave nemaitiro akawanda akasiyana-siyana sezvo chokwadi chedambudziko redu rinotanga. Ndinonetseka kuti munharaunda yakaita seUnited States, umo vazhinji vakagara kwenguva yakareba zvakawanda uye pfungwa yekodzero, vanhu havazokwanisi kutarisana nekuchinja kukuru kusingadzivisiki. Izvozvo zvinogona kuita kuti vanhu vagamuchire mwero mukuru wehutungamiriri nechiremera kana vatungamiriri vezvematongerwo enyika vakavimbisa kuchengetedza hupfumi ihwohwo. Muchinoitika ichocho, kusakwanisa kwavanhu kubata nemirangariro inomuka nemhaka yokuziva kuparara kungaunza nhambo inotova yokugovera kusina kururama kwakawanda zvikuru kwepfuma nezviwanikwa munyika ine chisimba chinotopfuura.
Nzira chete yekurwisana nayo ndeyokutaura pachena pamusoro pezvatinoona zvichiuya uye kushanda kuti tigadzire mamiriro ezvinhu anotibvumira kuti tivimbe pane zvakanakisisa zvezvisikwa zvedu, kwete zvakanyanya.
AD: Iwe unorasa mukana wemhinduro dzetekinoroji mukushanduka kwemamiriro ekunze asi nekuomarara kwematambudziko atiri kusangana nawo hatina basa rekuyedza zvese zvatinogona kudzivirira njodzi? Hatifanire kunge tichikwidza tsvagiridzo mune mamwe mafuta uye renewable simba zviwanikwa? Zvakadiniko nezve geo-engineering senzira yekudzivisa kuipa kwakaipisisa kwekuchinja kwemamiriro ekunze?
RJ: Handirambi kukosha kwe tekinoroji yepamusoro kune mazano ane musoro. Ini ndinorasa chirevo chekuti nekuti isu tinoda kugadzirisa matambudziko nehunyanzvi tichagadzira iyo tekinoroji, uye kuti ichave yakachengeteka uye kwete kukonzera matambudziko matsva. Ini ndinoramba izvozvo nekuti zvinondibata sefungidziro inofuratira nhoroondo uye inotibvisa pachokwadi chemazuva ano.
Saka, hongu, tine basa iroro, uye ndinotsigira mari yakakomba mune rimwe simba. Chinondinetsa ndechekuti tsika yetekinoroji fundamentalism inosiya vanhu vari panjodzi yehutsotsi. Danho rekutanga nderekuziva kuti tese tichararama munyika ine simba shoma munguva pfupi iri kutevera, uye zvinoreva shanduko huru mumararamiro atinoita muNyika Yekutanga. Hapana chinotsiva simba iroro rezvicherwa, uye zviri nani kuti tibvumirane nazvo. Kana isu tisingazive izvozvo, tinonyura zviri nyore muzvirongwa zvisina musoro sengejecha retara muCanada, inova njodzi yezvakatipoteredza. Zvimwe chete zvebiofuels uye chirevo chisina musoro chekuti tinogona kutsiva mafuta efossil ne ethanol, inova inorasikirwa nezvisikwa.
Geo-engineering inoenda nhanho inopfuura iyo, mukupenga chaiko. Zvikumbiro zvekushandisa zvisikwa zvepasi kuburikidza nezvirongwa zvakaita sekuisa zvimedu zvinopenya mumhepo, kana magirazi mudenga kuti abvise chiedza chezuva, kana kushandura makore - zvese izvi zvinoratidza kuti hatina kudzidza chidzidzo chakakosha chenguva yemaindasitiri. Hatina kudzidza, sekutaura kunoita Wes Jackson, kuti isu takanyanya kusaziva kupfuura isu ruzivo. Tine nhoroondo yekufungidzira kuti ruzivo rwedu rwakakwana kugadzirisa kupindira kukuru mu ecosystem, zvichitisiya takatarisana nemigumisiro isingatarisirwi yezvipindiro izvozvo. Panguva ino, hapana nzira ine musoro kumatambudziko ezvakatipoteredza asingatangi nekuzivikanwa uku: Tichararama munyika ine simba rakaderera iyo inofambiswa zvakanyanya nechiedza chezuva chazvino, kwete simba rekare remafuta. Sevanhu hatina kugadzirira, maererano nemamiriro ekunze kana ruzivo rwetsika, kubata nazvo. Chinhu chipi nechipi chinowedzera kunonoka kusvika pakuenderana nechokwadi ichi kutyisidzira upenyu hwepasi, kwete mhinduro.
AD: Muhurukuro yemisi ichangobva kupfuura iyi wakati: โNdinofara kuona mugumo wouzhinji hwouhwo hwatakasvika pakudana kuti โupenyu hwakanaka,โ nokuti hazvina kumbondiorora sezvakanaka zvakadaro, kwete kuvanhu vazhinji nezvimwe zvinhu zvipenyu. ." Ndeapi maitiro aunofunga kuti capitalism yemazuva ano yatadza kuzadzisa zvidikanwi zvechero chikamu chakasarudzika chenyika dzekumadokero?
RJ: Capitalism ndiyo hurongwa hwehupfumi hwakanyanya munhoroondo, asi chinhu chimwe chete chahusingakwanise kuburitsa zvinoreva. Chinotonyanya kunetsa inzira, kuburikidza nekusimudzirwa kwayo kwenarcissism uye kushandisa zvisina mufungo, iyo capitalism inodzikisira kugona kwetsika kwakakura kugadzira chirevo chaicho. Zvinenge zvese zvakanaka munzanga - kubatana, tsitsi, kugadzira, tsika, mufaro - zvinobva kunze kwe capitalism, zvichipa fungidziro yekuti capitalism inzira yakabudirira. Ingoma, asi yakakosha zvekuti tinoiimba kakawanda: Mari haigone kukutengera rudo. Capitalism haigoni kuumba nzanga yevanhu ine hutano, uye inoderedza chimiro chechimiro chevanhu chakadzika mukubatana nerudo.
Kumwe kutadza kuri pachena kwecapitalism kuita kwayo mukukukurwa kwehutano hweecosystem. Vanhu vanga vachikwevera pasi guta guru repasi kubva pakavambwa zvekurima makore angangosvika zviuru gumi apfuura, asi maitiro aya akawedzera zvakanyanya munguva yecapitalist/imperialist/maindasitiri. Tsika dzedu dzakazadzwa nekutaura pamusoro pekubudirira kwecapitalism kunyangwe hurongwa uhu huchidzikisira hukama hwedu nekutyisidzira hupenyu hwedu. Ndiyo tsanangudzo isinganzwisisike yekubudirira.
AD: Pane here vanyori pane iyi basa raungade kukurudzira?
RJ: Wes Jackson ndeimwe yeandinovimba naye zvakanyanya pane idzi nyaya. Wes musayendisiti ari kushanda mukutsvagisa nezvekurima kwakasimba, asi kushoropodza kwake kunosanganisira zvematongerwo enyika, hupfumi, uye tsika. Bhuku rake idzva, Kubvunza Iyo Genius yeNzvimbo: Iyo Ecological Nzira yeKurima Itsva, ichabuda mumatsutso ano, uye ndiri kutarisira kuverenga. Ndinofunga bhuku razvino raBill McKibben, Earth: Kuita Hupenyu paNyika Itsva Yakaoma, yakakosha, kunyangwe ndichifunga kuti kutenda kwake musimba reinternet kuti atibatsire kuburikidza neshanduko hakuna njodzi. Mabhuku aWilliam Catton Kupfuura uye Bhodhoro zvakandibatsirawo kuti ndizive chokwadi.
Pamusoro pemibvunzo yezvakatipoteredza, ndinofunga kuti tinofanirawo kuramba takatarisa pamibvunzo yezvematongerwo enyika netsika, pamusoro pekuti kugovewa kuripo kweupfumi nesimba zvipingamupinyi zvakakomba kushanduko ine musoro. Izvi zvinoreva kuramba tichifunga nezvehutongi hwehushe nehupfumi, uye nedanho rekuti madzibaba uye hukuru hwevachena hugadzirire nyika yedu nekudzikisira kugona kwedu kuve vanhu vakazara.
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Robert Jensen purofesa wezvenhau paYunivhesiti yeTexas kuAustin uye nhengo yebhodhi yeThird Coast Activist Resource Center muAustin. Ndiye munyori we Mapfupa Angu Ese Anozununguka: Kutsvaga Nzira Inofambira Mberi kuIzwi rechiporofita, (Soft Skull Press, 2009); Kubuda: Zvinonyadzisira uye Kuguma kweMasculinity (South End Press, 2007); Mwoyo Wekuchena: Kutarisana Rudzi, Rusaruraganda uye Rusununguko Rwechena (Maguta eMaguta, 2005); Vagari veHumambo: Nhamburiko yeKutora Hunhu Hwedu (City Lights, 2004); uye Kunyora Kupikisa: Kutora Radical Mazano kubva kuMargins kuenda kune Mainstream (Peter Lang, 2002). Jensen zvakare mugadziri wedhipatimendi refirimu "Abe Osheroff: Imwe Tsoka muGuva, Imwe Ichiri Kutamba," iyo inorondedzera hupenyu nehuzivi hwemuratidziri wenguva refu. Ruzivo nezve firimu, rakagoverwa neMedia Education Foundation, uye kubvunzurudzwa kwakawedzerwa Jensen kwakaitwa naOsheroff vari online pa. http://thirdcoastactivist.org/osheroff.html. Jensen anogona kuwanikwa pa [email inodzivirirwa] uye zvinyorwa zvake zvinogona kuwanikwa online pa http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~rjensen/index.html. Kujoinha email runyorwa kuti ugamuchire zvinyorwa naJensen, enda ku http://www.thirdcoastactivist.org/jensenupdates-info.html.
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