Gwero: Demokalase Tsopano!
Boma la Biden lalonjeza mabiliyoni a thandizo lankhondo ku Ukraine kuyambira pomwe Russia idaukira kumapeto kwa February, ndipo mlembi wa chitetezo ku US Lloyd Austin adati sabata ino cholinga cha US chinali "kuwona Russia ikufooka." Wolemba mabuku komanso katswiri wofufuza Anatol Lieven, mkulu wa bungwe la Quincy Institute for Responsible Statecraft, akuchenjeza kuti pokhapokha ngati palibe kudzipereka kuti apeze njira yothetsera mkanganowu, ikhoza kukhala nkhondo ya US yomwe ili ndi "zotsatira zoopsa kwambiri."
AMY GOODMAN: izi ndi Demokarase Tsopano!, democracynow.org, Lipoti la Nkhondo ndi Mtendere. Ndine Amy Goodman, ndi Nermeen Shaikh.
Ukraine yati dziko la Russia likukulitsa ziwopsezo zake kummawa kwa Ukraine. Izi zikubwera pamene Mlembi Wamkulu wa UN Antรณnio Guterres akuyendera Kyiv lero kukakumana ndi Purezidenti wa Ukraine Volodymyr Zelensky. M'mbuyomu lero, a NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg adawulula NATO mayiko alonjeza ndikupereka ndalama zokwana madola 8 biliyoni zankhondo ndi thandizo lankhondo ku Ukraine. Lachitatu, Vladimir Putin waku Russia adachenjeza mayiko aku Western kuti alowererepo pankhondo yaku Ukraine.
PRESIDENT VLADIMIR PUTIN: [Kutanthauziridwa] Ngati wina aganiza kuti alowerere muzochitika zamakono ku Ukraine kuchokera kunja ndikupanga ziopsezo zosavomerezeka za Russia, ndiye kuti ayenera kudziwa kuti kuyankha kwathu, kubwezera kwathu, kudzakhala mphezi mofulumira, mofulumira. Tili ndi zida zonse za izi, kotero kuti palibe amene angadzitamande nazo pakali pano. Ndipo sitidzadzitama. Tidzagwiritsa ntchito ngati pakufunika. Ndipo aliyense ayenera kudziwa za izo. Tapanga zisankho zonse pankhaniyi.
AMY GOODMAN: Ndemanga za Putin zimabwera pambuyo poti nduna yake yakunja idadzudzula United States ndi ogwirizana nawo kuti amenya nkhondo ku Ukraine. Putin adakumananso ndi mlembi wamkulu wa UN Lachiwiri.
Panopa tikugwirizana ndi Anatol Lieven, mkulu wa Quincy Institute for Responsible Statecraft, wolemba mabuku ambiri a Russia ndi mayiko omwe kale anali Soviet Union, kuphatikizapo. Ukraine ndi Russia. Zake zatsopano Chidutswa ili ndi mutu wakuti "Kuopsa koopsa kokankhira nkhondo yaku US ku Ukraine."
Fotokozani, Anatol, zomwe mukutanthauza ndi proxy war. Nanga chikuchitika nโchiyani panopa?
ANATOL LIEVEN: Chabwino, chifukwa chomwe ndinalembera chidutswacho chinali kuyankha kwa Mlembi wa Chitetezo Lloyd Austin kuti njira ya US tsopano ikufooketsa Russia kupyolera mu nkhondo ku Ukraine. Ndipo, mukudziwa, kwenikweni, ndizomwe zili nkhondo ya proxy, mukudziwa, US ikuyesera kugwiritsa ntchito nkhondo ku Ukraine osati kuteteza Ukraine, koma cholinga chachikulu.
Chodetsa nkhawa ndi ichi ndikuti izi zatsagana ndi zonena zambiri ku U.S. ndi NATO za kuthandiza Ukraine kupambana. Tsopano, ngati izi zikutanthauza kuthandiza Ukraine kumenyana ndi Russia kuti ayime ndikuletsa Russia kugonjetsa Ukraine, ndiye kuti, ndithudi, ndizovomerezeka. Koma pakhala pali malingaliro oti kupambana kumathandiziradi kuti Ukraine igonjetsenso gawo lonse lomwe idataya ku Russia kuyambira 2014, kuphatikiza gawo lomwe Russia tsopano likuwona ngati gawo ladziko lawo. Izi, zachidziwikire, zitha kuwonetsa kukwera kwakukulu kwa zolinga zaku US, zokhala ndi zotsatira zowopsa kwambiri.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Anatol, funso ndilakuti anthu aku America akuganiza kuti boma lopanda a Putin litha kulolera kusiya madera, kuphatikiza Crimea.
ANATOL LIEVEN: Chabwino, ngati iwo akuganiza zimenezo, iwo akulakwitsa kwathunthu. Ngati muyang'ana maganizo a anthu a ku Russia, ngati muyang'ana mawu a gulu lonse la ndale la Russia, kuphatikizapo, Alexei Navalny, mtsogoleri wa chitsutso cha Russia, onse tsopano akuwona Crimea ngati gawo la dziko la Russia. gawo. Ndipo izi, mwa njira, zikuwoneka kuti zimathandizidwa ndi anthu ambiri a ku Crimea, omwe ndi amtundu wa Russia. Kotero, ayi, ndikutanthauza, kuti mubweretse ku Russia ku Crimea, muyenera kuwononga dziko la Russia. Tsopano, panthawiyo, ziwopsezo zaku Russia zogwiritsa ntchito zida zanyukiliya zimayamba kuoneka ngati bluster komanso ngati chinthu chomwe chingachitike.
AMY GOODMAN: Ndipo izi zingapewedwe bwanji, Anatol Lieven?
ANATOL LIEVEN: Chabwino, lingaliro langa ndiloti ndizotheka kuti ngati Russia ingagonjetse Donbas yonse, zomwe sizinachitepo mpaka pano - mukudziwa, asilikali a ku Russia akhala akumvetsa chisoni kwambiri, moona. Koma ngati ingachite izi, ndendende chifukwa Russia yavulala kwambiri, Russia ikhoza kuyimitsa ndikupereka kuyimitsa ndi kukambirana.
Ndipo boma la Chiyukireniya lapereka malingaliro omveka bwino a kukhazikitsa mtendere, kutengera mgwirizano wosalowerera ndale komanso kugawa nkhani zomwe zidzakambidwe mtsogolo, ndikusuntha nkhondo ya Ukraine ku gawo laukazembe monga momwe zidachitikira ndi kuwukira kwa Turkey ku Cyprus. Zaka 45 zapitazo. Chifukwa chake, m'malingaliro mwanga, ingakhale njira yanzeru kuti mayiko akumadzulo athandizire - mwanjira ina, kuthandizira chitetezo cha Ukraine ndi Ukraine ndi ufulu wodzilamulira, koma osagwiritsa ntchito dziko la Ukraine pazolinga zazikulu za U.S. kapena Ukraine. Chifukwa kumbukiraninso kuti ndi chinthu chimodzi kuti Ukraine ateteze mizinda yake motsutsana ndi kuukira kwa Russia, zomwe azichita ndi kupambana kwakukulu ndi luso ndi kulimba mtima, ndipo, ndithudi, mothandizidwa ndi zida za Kumadzulo; Ndi nkhani yosiyana kwambiri kuti Ukraine ipite kunkhondo ndikuyesera kuukira malo omwe akukumbidwa aku Russia. Panthawi imeneyo, Ukraine mwiniwakeyo adzataya kwambiri ponena za ovulala.
Koma komanso, ndithudi, ndemanga za Lloyd Austin, ndi za boma la Britain, komanso, zikutanthawuza nkhondo yomwe idzapitirira mpaka kalekale, mukudziwa, nkhondo yosatha yolimbana ndi Russia. Mukudziwa, tiyenera kufunsa zomwe zidzachite ku Ukraine, zomwe zidzachite pachuma chapadziko lonse lapansi, komanso zomwe zidzachite ku Europe.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Anatol, pa funso la zida zankhondo, zida za Kumadzulo zimapereka ku Ukraine, Russia yayesa kusokoneza zinthuzi kumadera aku Ukraine, koma sanachitebe, mwachitsanzo, m'njira zoperekera - kudzera munjira zoperekera ku Poland. Kodi chingachitike ndi chiyani ngati Russia iyamba kuchita izi?
ANATOL LIEVEN: Chabwino, kuti, ndithudi, kudzakhala kuwukira pa NATO membala. Pakadakhala kukakamizidwa kwakukulu, ndikuganiza, ku America kukhazikitsa malo osawuluka, mukudziwa, kutumiza gulu lankhondo laku America ku Ukraine. Ndege zaku America zikadawomberedwa, ndipo oyendetsa ndegewo amaphedwa, ndi mabatire amisala omwe amakhala ku Russia komweko, komwe kumatha kufalikira madera ambiri aku Ukraine. Kodi zikadatenga nthawi yayitali bwanji kuti America iyambe kuukira mabatire omwe ali m'gawo la Russia?
Mukadakhala ndi zomwe United States ndi Russia zinali - kapena United States ndi NATO anali kuponya mizinga kudera la wina ndi mnzake - mukudziwa, maulamuliro awiri amphamvu okhala ndi zida za nyukiliya omwe ali ndi kuthekera kowononga anthu. Izi ndi zomwe mibadwo ya apurezidenti aku US panthawi ya Cold War idachita mosamala kwambiri kuti ipewe, chifukwa zoopsa zake ndi zazikulu kwambiri. Tsopano, zimenezo sizinatanthauze mwanjira iriyonse kugwirizana ndi ulamuliro wa Soviet Union, kuponderezedwa kwa Soviet, ulamuliro wankhanza wachikomyunizimu Kumโmaลตa kwa Yuropu. Chinali chabe chithunzithunzi cha kuzindikira zenizeni za zoopsa zowopsya zomwe zimachitika pakulimbana mwachindunji ndi Moscow.
AMY GOODMAN: Anatol Lieven -
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Anatol, mudanenapo kuti Ukraine idapereka malingaliro omveka okhudzana ndi zokambirana ndi Russia. Tsopano, Lavrov wangonena kuti kuthandizira kwa West ku Ukraine kukusokoneza zokambirana. Kodi Russia ili kuti pa funso la kukambirana za mtendere ndi Ukraine? Kodi zofuna zawo ndi zotani? Ndipo zofunikilazo zili pafupi bwanji kuti zikwaniritsidwe?
ANATOL LIEVEN: Chakumapeto kwa mwezi watha, zikuwoneka ngati mbali ziwirizi zikuyandikira limodzi pa izi ndipo Russia idasiya zolinga zake zazikulu ku Ukraine. Ndipo Purezidenti Zelensky ndi boma la Ukraine adalengeza kuti akufuna kusaina pangano losalowerera ndale, lomwe ndi chimodzi mwa zolinga zazikulu za Russia, chifukwa, monga Zelensky adanena, kuyambira. NATO anali atakana kuvomereza Ukraine, mukudziwa, bwanji osasayina pangano losalowerera ndale, ndi, ndithudi, zitsimikizo zamphamvu, zitsimikizo zapadziko lonse, za ulamuliro ndi chitetezo cha Chiyukireniya?
Tsopano, kuyambira nthawi imeneyo, zomwe Russia ikuyesera kuchita ndikutenga gawo lonse la Donbas kum'mawa kwa Ukraine, chifukwa Russia yazindikira ufulu wa mayiko a Donbas pagawo lonse la Donbas koma sanathe kugonjetsa. dziko lonse la Donbas. Tsopano, zikuwoneka kwa ine kuti izi ndizochepa zomwe Putin akuyenera kukwaniritsa kuti - chabwino, kunamizira anthu aku Russia kuti nkhondo yowopsa iyi yakhala chigonjetso cha Russia. Kotero, izo, ndikuganiza, ndi zomwe asilikali a ku Russia akuyesera kuchita.
Ndipo ngati angakwanitse zimenezoโ zomwe nโzosakayikitsa, koma, akupita patsogoloโndiye tiyenera kuona zimene Russia idzachita kenako, kaya isiya ndikupereka kuyimitsa moto kapena ngati ikufuna kupita patsogolo. Sitinganene motsimikiza, koma ndikuganiza, chifukwa cha kuvulala kwakukulu komwe Russia yakumana nayo komanso zosatheka zomwe adakumana nazo kuti alande mizinda ikuluikulu ya Chiyukireniya, ndikuganiza kuti ndizotheka kuti munthu adzawona kuyesa kwatsopano kwa Russia pazokambirana. kuthetsa.
AMY GOODMAN: Kodi mungalankhule za kuthekera kochoka - osati kungotheka, ndikutanthauza, kuphulitsa bomba ku Russia ku Transnistria, tanthauzo la Moldova tsopano ikukhudzidwa ndi izi, ndi zomwe zikutanthauza, komanso izi, zonse - mwalemba za izi โ ndikutanthauza, kusintha kwa mawu kwa Secretary of Defense Austin โ W ndi W, sichoncho? - kupambana ndi kufooketsa. Ndi mlingo watsopano pakali pano.
ANATOL LIEVEN: Chabwino, ku Moldova, ndizovuta kunena zomwe zikuchitika. Zachidziwikire, mudakhalapo pachiwopsezo ndi mkulu wankhondo waku Russia kuti awoloke Ukraine kuti akathandizire dziko lopatuka la Transnistrian mothandizidwa ndi Russia.
AMY GOODMAN: Kodi ndizomveka kunena kuti Russia idaphulitsa? Kodi tikudziwa?
ANATOL LIEVEN: Sitikudziwa. Ndipo zikafika ku nsanja yolumikizirana ku Transnistria, ndikuganiza kuti ndizotheka kuti anali aku Ukraine, pazifukwa zomveka bwino, chifukwa, nzeru zaku Russia zikugwiritsa ntchito Transnistria ngati maziko. Chifukwa chake, sitikudziwa bwino zomwe zikuchitika pamenepo.
Koma chowopsa chachikulu, zikuwoneka kwa ine, chiri ku Caucasus, chifukwa ndi gulu lankhondo la Russia lomwe latsekeredwa tsopano ku Ukraine, Georgia atha kutenga mwayi kuyesa kubwezeretsa madera, madera olekanitsa mothandizidwa ndi Russia. Komanso Azerbaijan. Ikhoza kuyesa kutenga Nagorno-Karabakh yonse, gawo la Armenian lomwe asilikali a ku Russia akuteteza. Ndiyeno mumatha kuona kufalikira kwakukulu kwa nkhondo kwina. Ndipo, mwa njira, mukudziwa, ngakhale Kumadzulo -
AMY GOODMAN: Masekondi khumi.
ANATOL LIEVEN: O, chabwino, kumbukirani, ndikutanthauza, pali anthu ambiri aku Armenia ku America omwe sangasangalale ndi chitukukochi.
ZNetwork imalandira ndalama kudzera mu kuwolowa manja kwa owerenga ake.
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