Amafika nthawi yake ku cafe ya Alba Hotel mu guayabera yoyera. Atangokhala pansi, mtumiki Navarro, monga amadziwika kuyambira chiyambi cha Bolivarian Revolution, akuyamba kulankhula. Anthu ena mu cafe, omwe amamudziwa kuyambira pamene ankakonda kuyendayenda m'misewu yokwezeka ya mphamvu za boma, amapezerapo mwayi womupatsa moni mwansangala, ambiri a iwo ali patali pang'ono.
Komabe, mtsikana wina anagwa patebulo lathu ndi chimvula champhamvu n’kumadziuza kuti: “Kodi mukudziŵa?”
Amapempha molimbika Hector Navarro kuti akhale mulungu [woyang'anira boma] pamwambo wake womaliza maphunziro a udokotala wa Educative Innovation of the Pedagogic University in Caracas (UPEL). "Ndiwe mphunzitsi, sichoncho?" akufunsa.
“Ayi,” Navarro akumuwongolera mwaulemu, “ine ndine injiniya.”
Kuyankha kwake kumatulutsa bata lalikulu lomwe limakhalapo kwakanthawi, koma mtsikanayo akuwonetsa kuti sakufuna kutaya mwayiwo. “Zimenezo sizofunika. Ndikudziwa kuti mukudziwa za maphunziro. Tafunsanso Purezidenti wa National Assembly [Diosdado Cabello], koma sanatiyankhe. Ndithudi simuli otanganidwa kwambiri, pulofesa. Chonde, vomerezani. Ndipatseni nambala yanu yafoni."
Pulofesa Navarro akuwonetsa kuti amaumirira Diosdado, ndikumasula mawu omwe azikhala patebulo lathu panthawi yotsala ya zokambirana zathu: "Ndadetsedwa. Ukufuna kuti nthabwalayo ikhale pa iwe?" Kumwetulira kwake kwaubwenzi sikutha.
Pamene mtsikanayo akuzimiririka, pulofesa Navarro akuulula kuti, “N’chifukwa chiyani ndiyenera kukhala tate womaliza maphunziro awo? Iwo amatha kulephera, kapena ngakhale kuzimitsa magetsi pakati pa chochitikacho. Izi zachitika, pamwambo wa Luctec ku Coro, komanso mnyumba ina ku Central Park. Koma zonsezi ndi nthano, ndi gawo limodzi mwazinthu zapakati. ”
Wodetsedwa. Uku ndikumverera kwa munthu yemwe pazaka zinayi zosasokonezedwa, kuyambira 1994 mpaka chipambano cha chisankho cha MVR mu 1998, adakhala pansi kamodzi pa sabata ndi Comandante Hugo Chavez, Jorge Giordani, lieutenant Rafael Isea ndi bwanamkubwa wakale wa Apure, Jesus Aguilarte, kuti akambirane njira zanzeru komanso zoyenera kuti pakhale anthu ambiri otchuka ku Venezuela.
Imfa ya Chavez, mu Marichi wa 2013, yatulutsa mikuntho yochulukirapo pagulu ndi mafayilo a chavismo. Chodziwika bwino kwambiri, chochokera ku kutuluka kwa Jorge Giordani kuchokera ku Unduna wa Zokonza, komanso kuphulika kwanthawi yomweyo kwa nduna yakale Navarro kuchokera ku National Management ya [chipani cholamulira cha Socialist] PSUV, choperekedwa ndendende ndi Diosdado Cabello, mlandu wopempha kuti maganizo a Giordani akambidwe, m’kalata yomwe inafalitsidwa ndi webusaiti ya rebelion.org mu August 2014. Lero, mlandu wake wabweretsedwa ku Khoti Lachilango, zomwe zimamulepheretsa kuchita nawo ndale m’magulu a chipani chake.
Navarro adalemba mawu oyamba a buku laposachedwa kwambiri la Jorge Giordani, Kukumana ndi Kusagwirizana ndi Bolivarian Construction (sikugulitsidwabe). Mu ndime yachiwiri akuti Giordani akhoza kuganiziridwa zinthu zambiri, koma osati wachinyengo.
Malingaliro a amuna “oipitsidwa” ameneŵa amene achotsedwa m’sitima ya boma akuwoneka kuti akukhudzana ndi makhalidwe abwino, nkhondo yapamtanda yomwe yachititsa Giordani mwiniwake kunena kuti zisankho zosalongosoka zoterozo “zatipanga kukhala choseketsa ku Latin America.”
Kodi ntchito ya Hector Navarro ndi yotani panthawiyi?
Ndakhala m’gulu la zinthu zoukira boma kuyambira ndili ndi zaka 14, kuyambira mu 1963, ndili kusekondale. Tinakonza malo ophunzirira ana asukulu atawaletsa ndi Unduna wa Zamaphunziro. Tikukamba za Purezidenti Romulo Betancourt. Kenako ndinaphunzira pa yunivesite ya Central, m’nthawi ya zigawenga. Ndiyeno, monga pulofesa wa payunivesite, ndiponso monga chiŵalo cha komiti ya sukulu, bungwe la faculty ndi bungwe la yunivesite, ndinagwirizana ndi Hugo Chavez. Sindinasowe udindo wautumiki kuti ndichite izi. Ndinagwira ntchito yanga yandale panthawiyo ndipo ndipitiriza kuichita tsopano. Munjira yotani? Ndimakumana ndi madera, magulu, komanso magulu a zipani. Ndine wokonda kulinganiza pamodzi.
Ndi uthenga wotani womwe mumatumiza kwa militant chavista?
Kwenikweni kuti maziko a chipani ayenera kubwezeretsanso ulamuliro wawo pachipanicho. Ngakhale purezidenti Chavez, pazokambirana ndi zolankhula zosiyanasiyana, adapempha kuti anthu azigwirizana. Ndipo ndi zomwe ndikuchita, ndikuyitanitsa anthu omwe ali ndi chipani chosintha ndi chikhalidwe cha Socialist kuti akhale chitsanzo chamkati mwa demokalase cha palibe COOPTACION, pomwe anthu atha kufotokoza okha mlandu wamalingaliro kulibe. Ndikulimbikitsa kupanduka kwa maziko a chipani, kuti apitirize kupanga zosintha, kuti kusintha kusataye.
Kodi PSUV ili bwanji panthawiyi?
Zinali zolakwika kwambiri kunyalanyaza zofuna za zigawenga zina monga Ana Elisa Osorio ndi ineyo zomwe oyang'anira chipani ayenera kukwaniritsa. Pambuyo pa imfa ya pulezidenti Chavez, iwo adatalikirana kwambiri, ndipo ngakhale miyezi inkadutsa osakumana ndi atsogoleri, pomwe nthawi zambiri timakumana sabata iliyonse. [Misonkhano ya mlungu ndi mlungu] ndi imene Chavez analamula, kupewa zisankho popanda kukambirana komanso kugwiritsa ntchito anthu polimbikitsa zisankho.
Mukuganiza kuti chipanichi chikulekana ndi anthu?
Iwo asiyana kwambiri. Si Hector Navarro yekha amene ananena, Hugo Chavez ananenanso mu Januwale 2011. Kuyambira 1994 tinali kukumana ndi a Comandante ndikulankhula za kufunikira kopambana zisankho. Chipani chiyenera kupambana zisankho, koma chipani chikangopambana zisankho zomwe sizimapangitsa kuti chikhale chipani cha Revolution. Democratic Action [otsutsa] adadziwona ngati apamwamba, akupambana zisankho zonse, koma sanali chipani chosintha. Chipani chomwe chimangofuna kupambana zisankho popanda kupanga zigawenga chimadzipangitsa kuti chikhale chaufulu. Ndipo ndikuganiza kuti, mwanjira zambiri, ndizomwe zikuchitika mu PSUV.
Kodi pali kufunika kosiyanitsa pakati pa boma ndi zigawenga?
M'maganizidwe, boma sikusintha. Kusintha sikuchokera ku boma, kumatuluka pansi, kuchokera kumagulu a anthu, omwe pambuyo pake amafika ku mphamvu. Mphamvu yomwe siili yonse, kwenikweni. PDVSA lero sikusintha kapena sizinali choncho. Malo ena anali otanganidwa, koma PDVSA yachinyengo yomwe tikuwona lero, yokhala ndi ogwira ntchito omwe amangidwa, akuluakulu omwe atenga nawo gawo pazaka zonse izi, sindikuganiza kuti tinganene kuti osintha.
Chimodzi mwa zinthu zomwe Jorge Giordani akunena ndikuti boma liyenera kugwirizana ndi anthu mwa njira ya choonadi. Ngati takumana ndi mavuto, tiyenera kuuza anthu kuti pali mavuto. Ngati tiyenera kumanga malamba, boma liyenera kuchenjeza anthu, makamaka pulezidenti- tiyenera kumanga malamba. Sizingatheke kutsekemera piritsi, palibe chabwino kuyesa kubisa mavuto aakulu.
N’chifukwa chiyani amabisa vutolo?
Ndi kulakwa kwa ndale, kulakwitsa.
Kodi mukuganiza kuti amaopa gulu linalake la anthu?
Tiyenera kumvetsetsa kuti pali mndandanda wazinthu zakunja zomwe zimathandizira zomwe mwatcha molondola zovuta. Tili pansi pa mtundu wa nkhanza zachuma, zomwe sizimangodziwonetsera zokha zachuma. Funso lomwe ndimadzifunsa ndiloti pamene ife tokha tidathandizira pazachuma chakunja, chifukwa cha zolakwa zophatikizika, zosakwanira, kusamvetsetsana. Tathandiza (ndipo ndikudziyika ndekha m'magulu a zigawenga ndi boma pano) kuti ndipange izi. Ndikunena ndi udindo, ndi kudzipereka kuteteza kusintha kwathu ndi kupewa kugwa kwake, chifukwa ndikufuna kuti apitirize kukhala osintha dziko lino.
Kodi chiwembuchi chidzatha ngati bomali ligwa?
Ayi. Izi zili ngati kufunsa ngati Chikhristu chinafa ndi Khristu. Chikhristu chinayamba kufa pamene Konstantini analanda chipembedzocho, pamene Chikristu chenicheni chinasanduka mphamvu, n’kusiya maziko ake; anthu.
Ndipo sizomwe zikuchitika?
Inde, ndendende. Sindidzadzudzula kugwiritsa ntchito fano la Chavez, chifukwa ndilo likulu la zigawenga. Koma ndikuda nkhawa ndi kuchuluka kwa kugwiritsidwa ntchito kwake, zomwe titha kuzitcha kuti uhule wa fano la Chavez. Pamene kampeni idakhazikitsidwa yophatikiza cholowa cha Chavez ndi buku la buluu, kunali kulakwitsa. Bukhu labuluu limafanana ndi gawo la Chavez lomwe linali lachikondi, lokonda, la Bolivarian, lodziyimira pawokha, mumayendedwe ankhondo a Nasser, Velasco, Alvarado kapena Torrijos. Koma panthawiyo Chavez sanalankhulepo za socialism kapena capitalism, za kulimbana kwa magulu. Zomwe ndikutanthauza ndikuti Chavez adasinthika. Ndiye, cholowa chake ndi chiyani? Bukhu la buluu kapena Strike at the Helm [kulankhula] pamene adanena kuti commune inali isanakwaniritsidwe ndikuyitana Rafael Ramirez ndi atumiki ena?
Apa ndi pomwe Chavez adavomereza kuti boma lidagwiritsa ntchito mawu oti socialist mwachinyengo?
Tsopano pali vuto lalikulu lomwe likuchitika. Vuto silikungogwiritsa ntchito chithunzi cha Chavez, komanso kugwiritsa ntchito molakwika malingaliro ake.
M'mawu a Strike at the Helm, Chavez akuvomereza kuti kusinthaku kunangopeza zidutswa zokhazokha ndipo sikunapange zenizeni. Choncho. Kodi vuto ndi chitsanzo chomwe chakhalapo kwa nthawi yayitali kapena vuto ili ndi zotsatira za boma lomwe lilipo?
Chavez adadzudzula zododometsa ndiye, osati chitsanzocho.
Ndikubwerezanso kuti: Kodi vutoli ndi lachitsanzo chathu [cha ndale] kapena ndi kusawongolera bwino kwa boma masiku ano?
Mantha omwe tonse tili nawo, ngozi yomwe anthu amawona ndikuti tibwerera ku 4 [republic, ulamuliro wakale wa neoliberal]. Chinthu chimodzi ndi chitsanzo, zomwe tikufuna, ndipo china ndi zomwe tachita. Boma lili ngati galimoto; ngati mutazisiya, zimakhazikika Ndiye ndikudabwa, kodi pali socialism pano? Ayi.
Chitsanzo chapereka njira yoyendetsera ndalama za boma. Panthawi ina chitsanzocho chinapanga kukhazikika kwina. Ndipo tiyenera kukhala ndi udindo wopitiliza kutsimikizira izi. Ndikuumirira, tili ndi chifukwa cha chiwawa chakunja, koma mwachitsanzo, chilengezo chomwe Giordani adapanga ponena za 22.5 biliyoni ya madola akusowa. Kodi chachitika ndi chiyani? Pakadapanda kukhalapo mndandanda wamakampani opanga ma phantom, ambiri omwe adabisidwabe, zikadakhala zosiyana. Makampani awiri kapena atatu okha ndi omwe adawonekera pamndandandawu, omwe akuyimira pafupifupi 2 kapena 3 miliyoni yotayika madola. Mwa ena onse, palibe amene akudziwa.
Chifukwa chiyani?
Mukundifunsa ine? Limenelo ndi funso lokhudza ziphuphu, osati za socialism monga chitsanzo. Ndi vuto la anthu omwe adapita ku US ndipo akusangalala ndi madola omwe adaba nawo. Tikulankhula za mabanki, ogwira ntchito pagulu, ndi Rafael Isea, omwe amakhala sabata iliyonse kwa zaka zinayi patebulo laling'ono lomwe Chavez, Giordani, Aguilarte ndi ine timalankhula za momwe tingamangire ntchito ya Bolivarian, ndipo lero ali ku United States. . Ndipo lieutenant Alejandro Andrade? Alinso ku US akusangalala ndi mwayi wake. Ndipo sakuimbidwa mlandu kumeneko [pamndandanda wa White House wa maulamuliro ovomerezeka], bwanji zingakhale choncho?
Komanso sakuimbidwa mlandu pano kuti ndi achiwembu.
Chabwino ine ndikuganiza iwo ndi achiwembu.
Ndi Hector Navarro?
Ine pano. Ndinabwera kuno ndi galimoto yanga ku zokambiranazi. Ndili pano, ndikuwonetsa nkhope yanga, kutsogolo kwa zigawenga, kuteteza cholowa cha Chavez.
Mlandu wamaganizidwe si nkhani yatsopano mkati mwa chipani.
Sindinaonepo ndikulankhula za zovuta zamkati kunja kwa chipani. Koma iwo anatilanda danga limenelo. Tsopano ndilibe malo. Ana Elisa Osorio alibenso. Rodrigo Cabezas ndi wina yemwe alibe. Ndipo sitilankhula za Giordani.
Ndipo Vanesa Davies [mtolankhani wa pro-Chavez wodzipatula ku PDVSA atafotokoza zambiri zotsutsa mfundo]?
Koma zoona zake n’zakuti anasiya kusonkhana kalekale. Mario Silva nayenso. Koma ndikuuzeni kuti Rafael Ramirez sanapite kwa iwo ndipo wavomerezedwa. Izo ziyenera kudzifotokozera zokha.
Koma Ramirez adachotsedwa ku PDVSA ndi vicezidenti wosiyana. Anachotsedwanso ku Venezuela, ndipo ali ku New York tsopano.
Ndikuganiza kuti ndizofunika kwambiri ndipo ndikuzindikira. Kodi ndingatsutse bwanji zimenezo? Chomwe nditsutsa ndichakuti kuchuluka kwa nthawi amamulola kukhala.
PDVSA inapitirizabe kukhala bokosi lakuda la chavismo?
Zomwe zidachitika ndi Gladys Parada ndizowopsa kwambiri. M'kati mwa mabokosi akuda a PDVSA pali malonda amkati. Zombo za petulo zomwe zimati zimanyamula migolo ya 200 pamene kwenikweni zimakhala ndi 300 zikwi. Ziwerengero zokhudzana ndi kugulitsa ndi kugulitsa zinthu zoyaka sizikugwirizana. Ndikunena za mafuta ndi dizilo. David Paravisini akunena kuti 49% ya mafuta athu amkati amasiya malire a mayiko. Ndalamazo zikanatha kunyamulidwa ndi sitima yokha, osati pamtunda.
Chowonadi ndi chakuti Rafael Ramirez sakulamuliranso PDVSA. Kodi Giordani akulowa pati m'nkhaniyi?
Sindikudziwa, Giordani alipo. Akuchita zomwe akufuna… Limodzi mwavuto lachisinthiko ndiloti tikukhala m'nthawi yosalamulirika. Ndamaliza ntchito yofunsa anthu pakati pa 200 ndi 300 kuti pali mautumiki angati. Palibe amene akudziwa. Pali ngati 27. Rafael Ramirez, kwenikweni, anali ndi mndandanda wautali wa etc. pambuyo pa mutu wake.
Kodi mungakhulupirire boma ngati limeneli?
Si funso lokhulupirirana. Chowonadi ndi chakuti sindikuwadziwa atumiki ambiri, sindikudziwa ngakhale omwe iwo ali. Kodi anthuwo adzadandaula kwa ndani? Kodi mbiri idzaweruza ndani pazigamulo zimenezi? Purezidenti Maduro adanena posachedwapa kuti adziyang'anira yekha pazachuma, mwina akudziyika yekha patsogolo.
Kodi mukuwona bwanji kuti pali mgwirizano pakati pa gulu lankhondo ndi boma ndi boma lino?
Mukandifunsa, zilibe kanthu kuti wotsogolera ndi wamba kapena wankhondo. Zomwe zimandidetsa nkhawa ndizakuti mutayika munthu pamalo chifukwa ndi wankhondo. Icho sichiri chitsimikizo cha chirichonse.
Kodi simukuganiza kuti kampeni yokweza mtengo wa petulo imakopa malingaliro a neoliberal? Kodi nkhaniyo imachepetsedwa kukhala vuto la ndalama zopangira?
Munthu ayenera kuphunzira, apo ayi kite yanu ingasokonezeke. Izi ndi zomwe Chavez anachita. Iye anali ndi dzanja lalikulu kwa strategy. Ndicho chifukwa chake anthu anadzudzulidwa ponena za ma arepera a sosholisti [maarepa otsika mtengo], mwachitsanzo. Kuti mutsimikizire anthu kuti mafuta akufunika kukwera muyenera kutsatira njira yolingalira yomwe imathandizira kupitiliza kumanga socialism. Sizingangokhala funso la kuchuluka kwa ndalama zake, chifukwa nthawi zina zitha kuperekedwa, monga thanzi ndi maphunziro. Nkhani ndi kupitiriza kuphunzitsa za sosholizimu.
Kodi ndi vuto chabe la kupanga [zandale] pamene mkangano wathu ukugwirizana ndi ulaliki wa Cedice [gulu la neoliberal]?
Ngati simuyika chisamaliro chofunikira pazambiri… Chavez adanena kuti satana anali mwatsatanetsatane. Zikuwoneka ngati zopanda pake, koma mfundozo zimayamba kupanga chidziwitso. Kupitirira apo, pamene pulezidenti Maduro akunena kuti 'ngakhale-mamiliyoni ochuluka bwanji pa chirichonse chomwe chikufunika- kuvomerezedwa!' Ndiyeno pali vuto kuti polojekiti ichitike- uthenga uli pamenepo? Kodi akutikonzekeretsa kukumana ndi zinthu ngati zomwe tikukumana nazo panopa? Kapena akunena kuti, “ndalama zasungidwa,” kapena kuti, “Mulungu adzatipatsa?”
Mkhalidwewu sungathe kuthetsedwa popereka zinthu zomwe palibe, kapena osakwanira. Muyenera kuyanjana ndi kulinganiza kwa ndalama ndikusankha zofunika kwambiri ndi maziko okwanira a chithandizo chamagulu, choyimiridwa moona mtima m'chipani. Ndi kukambirana momveka bwino komanso momveka bwino.
Kodi mukuwona kuti vutolo ndi lovuta?
Ndili ndi anzanga, ogwira ntchito zapamwamba ndi abwanamkubwa, omwe ali ndi nkhawa kwambiri ndi zomwe zikuchitika. Ngati mapiko amanja alowa m'boma, yanga ikhala m'gulu la atsogoleri oyamba kugubuduza. Ndikudziwa zimenezo. Sindikufuna kuti ndikhale ndi ufulu wolamulira, koma koposa zonse ndikufuna kuti tipitirize kugwira ntchito yolimbikitsa sosholizimu.
Ndibwerezanso zomwe Aristobulo anandiuzapo nthawi ina: ngati tichita zinthu monga Adecos [mamembala a neoliberal, "social democratic" Democratic Action] adachita, ndibwino kuti azichita okha. Sitingafanane nawo. Ziphuphu? Palibe njira yomwe tingawafanane nawo pamenepo, azichita bwino. Sikoyenera kuyesetsa, kapena kudzipereka, sikuli koyenera kupereka nsembe Hugo Chavez, kuti athe kuchita zinthu momwe Adecos ndi Copeyanos adachitira.
Kodi kusinthaku kuli kotheka?
Kusinthako ndi kotheka, koma kumafuna kudzimana. Sitiyenera kufunafuna zokhutiritsa zakuthupi zokha za mtundu wa anthu, chifukwa zimenezo ziri zopanda malire. Chofunikira ndi kudzipereka, kumveketsa bwino kwa ife tokha. Izi ndi zomwe Chavez adagwirirapo ntchito, ndichifukwa chake amakakamira malingaliro ena.
Pali ntchito yolimbana ndi katangale yomwe tidapanga ndili purezidenti wa Public Spending Commission. Idavomerezedwa pakutchulidwa koyamba ndikuyika pa alumali. Lili ndi mutu wofunikira kwambiri wokhudza kusamvana kwa zofuna. Zikutanthauza zinthu zitatu, ndipo timaphatikizanso malingaliro ochokera ku United Nations pankhaniyi. Poyambirira, ngati ndinu wotsogolera, nduna kapena pulezidenti, mutasiya ntchito yanu simungawoneke ngati Investor kapena wogwira ntchito pakampani yomwe mungalembe ntchito mutakhala m'boma. Palinso funso la misonkho yongoyerekeza ndipo lachitatu, lomwe ndikuganiza kuti ndilofunika kwambiri pakadali pano, ndi la tsankho. Ndizovuta kupeza nkhani yakatangale yomwe ilibe chikhalidwe chokondera; nthawi zonse pamakhala mwana wamwamuna, mphwake, mchimwene wake, mkazi, kholo kapena mlamu wake. Palibe socialism yomwe ingatheke bola pali ubale, chifukwa pakhoza kukhala ziphuphu.
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