Ma ka Pōʻalima, Ianuali 10 ma 9pm ET ma PBS (e nānā i nā papa inoa kūloko ma http://www.pbs.org/now/sched.html) NOW me Bill Moyers i kamaʻilio me ka mea kākau a me ka mea kākau moʻolelo Howard Zinn e pili ana i kāna puke hou loa a me kona mau manaʻo e pili ana. ke kaua e hiki mai ana me Iraq. E heluhelu i ka transcript o ka ninaninau:
BILL MOYERS: Ua kamaʻilio mākou me nā poʻe ma kēia papahana e lawe i nā kūlana like ʻole e pili ana i ke kaua e hiki mai ana me Iraq. Kūʻē ka malihini o kēia pō a hoʻopaʻapaʻa i kāna hihia ma kēia puke hou, TERRORISM AND WAR. ʻO ka mea kākau ka mea kākau moʻolelo a me ke kumu ʻo Howard Zinn, ka mea i ola i kahi ola politika mai kona hoʻi ʻana mai i ka home mai ka Air Force ma hope o ke Kaua Honua II.
Ua ulu ʻo ia ma nā alanui paʻakikī o Brooklyn kahi i hana ai ʻo ia i kona wā ʻōpio ma nā hale moku, loaʻa iā ia kāna kauka kauka ma ka mōʻaukala mai ke kulanui ʻo Columbia, a ʻoiai ʻo ke aʻo ʻana i ke kulanui ua lilo ʻo ia i mea hoʻoikaika i ka neʻe ʻana i nā kuleana kīwila a me ke kūʻē ʻana i ke Kaua Vietnam. Ma waena o kāna mau puke he nui kēia - HE MOOLELO KANAKA O Amelika Hui Pū ʻIa, i kākau ʻia mai ka manaʻo o nā kāne a me nā wahine i waiho ʻia ma waho o nā moʻolelo kūhelu o ka moʻolelo ʻAmelika. Mai kona paʻi ʻia ʻana i ka makahiki 1980, ua lilo ia i pōhaku paʻa o ka manaʻo kūʻē ma ʻAmelika. Aia ʻo Howard Zinn ma ke kūlanakauhale i kekahi lā, a kamaʻilio wau iā ia e pili ana i ka United States, terrorism, a me Iraq.
BILL MOYERS: I kēia manawa, ke manaʻo nei ʻoe ua kokoke mai ke kaua me Iraq?
HOWARD ZINN: Ua kokoke mai. Manaʻo ʻole ia no ka mea ua paʻa loa ka hoʻokele Bush e loaʻa i ke kaua no ka mea - ʻaʻohe mea e kūʻē ai, ʻaʻohe mea e manaʻo ai ka honua. ʻAʻole makemake ka poʻe o kēia ʻāina. A ke manaʻoʻiʻo nei au he nui ka makemake ʻole ma kēia ʻāina e pili ana i ke kaua - a me ka hele ʻana i ke kaua.
BILL MOYERS: He aha nā kumu maoli, i kou manaʻo, no ke aha mākou e hele ai i ke kaua? ʻO koʻu manaʻo ua ʻike mākou i nā kumu i ʻōlelo ʻia, nā mea kaua o ka luku nui, nā mea āpau.
No ke aha kou manaʻo e makemake lākou i ke kaua? Ua ʻike mākou i nā kumu i ʻōlelo ʻia - nā mea kaua o ka luku nui - no ke aha ʻoe i manaʻo ai e makemake nui lākou e hele i ke kaua?
HOWARD ZINN: ʻAe, manaʻo wau ʻaʻohe kānalua– e like me kāu e ʻōlelo nei aia nā kumu i haʻi ʻia. ʻAʻole kūpono kekahi o kēlā mau kumu i ʻōlelo ʻia, ʻike ʻoe? He kanaka lokoino ʻo Saddam Hussein– maikaʻi– ua ʻae mākou i ka poʻe hoʻomāinoino– he nui lākou. Ua hoʻonoho mākou i nā mea ʻino i ka mana. ʻIke ʻoe, nā mea kaua o ka luku nui ʻana, he kumu hoʻohālike wale nō kā mākou.
Ua ʻoi aku ka nui o nā mea kaua o Korea ma mua o Saddam Hussein akā ʻaʻole mākou e kaua ana ma Korea. Ma waho aʻe, ʻewalu mau ʻāina nuklea, ʻeā? ʻEwalu mau ʻāina i loaʻa nā mea kaua nuklea. ʻAʻole, ʻaʻole mākou e kaua iā lākou. ʻAʻole, ʻaʻole kēlā.
No laila, inā– Manaʻo wau ʻo ka ʻaila kekahi o nā mea nui. Akā ke manaʻo nei au aia kekahi. A ʻo kekahi o lākou e pili ana i kekahi mea psychological. ʻO kēlā manaʻo macho i loaʻa i ka poʻe mana e pili ana iā ʻAmelika Hui Pū ʻIa ka helu ʻekahi mana nui a hoʻoholo e hōʻike.
BILL MOYERS: Aia kekahi mau hōʻike e hiki ai iā lākou ke hōʻike a i ʻole kekahi hoʻopaʻapaʻa hiki iā lākou ke hana e hāʻawi iā ʻoe i nā manaʻo ʻelua e pili ana i kou kūʻē ʻana i ke kaua?
HOWARD ZINN: ʻAʻole hiki iaʻu ke noʻonoʻo i kekahi. A ke manaʻo nei au aia kekahi kumu kumu ʻaʻole hiki iaʻu ke noʻonoʻo i kekahi. A ʻo ia hoʻi, ʻike ʻoe, ʻo nā mea a lākou e manaʻo ai e pili ana i nā mea kaua o ka luku nui a me ka hana a Saddam Hussein, hoʻokahi mea maopopo. Inā mākou e hele i ke kaua, e pepehi mākou i nā tausani, nā ʻumi tausani, ʻaʻole mākou i ʻike i ka nui o nā kānaka. He haneri tausani? E pepehi mākou i nā kānaka he nui. A pepehi kakou ia wai? E pepehi mākou i ka poʻe i hoʻopilikia ʻia e Saddam Hussein.
Inā mākou e hele i ke kaua me Iraq, ke pepehi nei mākou i ka poʻe i hōʻeha ʻia e ka mea ʻino. ʻO ia iaʻu e hana i kahi hoʻohālikelike pono e hiki ʻole ke hoʻomanawanui.
BILL MOYERS: He hoʻohālikelike pono?
HOWARD ZINN: ʻO koʻu manaʻo - ʻo wau kekahi o nā poʻomanaʻo pono e pili ana i ke kaua a e pili ana i ke kaua wale nō āu i ʻike ai, ʻo ia ka pilikia o ka proportionality. A ʻo ia ka mea ʻino āu e hana ai i ka wā o ke kaua - i ka holomua o kekahi hopena. ʻOiai ke manaʻo nei he maikaʻi ka hopena. A iaʻu ka mea maopopo - a he ʻōlelo kēia e pili ana i ke kaua ma ka laulā, ʻaʻole wale no ke kaua kūʻē iā Iraq. He ʻōlelo ia e pili ana i ke kaua hou. A ʻo ia ke ʻano o ke kaua hou, ʻoiai i nā kaua liʻiliʻi, ʻike ʻoe, nā kaua liʻiliʻi, weliweli nā ala. ʻO koʻu manaʻo he mea make ke ʻano o ke kanaka. A ʻo kekahi— ʻoiaʻiʻo nō ke hele ʻoe i ke kaua e pepehi ʻoe, e ʻeha, e ʻeha, nā keiki makapō, nā wahine, nā ʻano kanaka a pau. He mea maopopo. ʻO ka hopena, ʻoiai ke ʻano o ka pono, ʻaʻole maopopo. No laila, i ka wā e loaʻa ai iā ʻoe kekahi ala weliweli, a maopopo ʻole ka hopena, iaʻu ua maopopo loa ʻaʻole pono ʻoe e hele i ke kaua.
BILL MOYERS: ʻO kēia ke ʻano o ke kaua a ka poʻe hoʻoweliweli e hakakā nei i kēia manawa. ʻO koʻu manaʻo i ka wā i hoʻokuʻu ai lākou i kēlā mau mokulele mokulele i ka World Trade Center a me ka Pentagon, ua hahau lākou i ka poʻe hala ʻole no kā lākou hana ponoʻī.
HOWARD ZINN: Pololei. Pololei. Pela ka lakou hana ana.
BILL MOYERS: Ke ʻōlelo nei ʻoe ʻo ia kā mākou e hana ai ma Iraq?
HOWARD ZINN: ʻAe, pololei kēlā. ʻO koʻu manaʻo - aia - he ʻano hoʻoweliweli ke kaua. ʻIke au aia kekahi poʻe makemake ʻole e hoʻohālikelike– ka mea i hana ʻia– ʻike ʻoe ma ka lā 11 o Kepakemapa, 2001, ʻaʻole lākou makemake e hoʻohālikelike i kēlā me ke kaua a ʻAmelika i komo ai. ʻOiaʻiʻo, ʻokoʻa lākou.
Akā ʻaʻole lākou ʻokoʻa i ka– ma ke kumu kumu e hoʻokele ai i nā mea hoʻoweliweli a ʻo ia hoʻi, ke ʻōlelo nei lākou, e pepehi mākou i nā poʻe he nui akā pono ia. Ke ho'āʻo nei mākou e hana i kekahi mea. Ke ho'āʻo nei mākou e hoʻokō i kekahi mea. ʻAʻole lākou-ʻaʻole pepehi ka poʻe hoʻoweliweli i ka poʻe no ka pepehi kanaka wale nō, he hopena ko lākou. No ka hōʻike ʻana he palupalu ke aupuni ʻAmelika a i ʻole e ʻōlelo i kekahi mea e pili ana i ke kulekele ʻAmelika ma ka Hikina Waena. Akā, he hopena ko lākou. Ke hana nei mākou i ka mea like. ʻO koʻu manaʻo, e like me kaʻu e ʻōlelo nei, ʻokoʻa nā kikoʻī, akā makemake mākou e pepehi i nā poʻe he nui no kekahi hopena politika a mākou i haʻi aku ai.
BILL MOYERS: A i kēia hihia, e hoʻopau ana i ka honua o kahi aupuni a Pelekikena Bush i ʻōlelo ai he ʻāpana o ka Axis of Evil. HOWARD ZINN: ʻAe, ʻae, ʻike ʻoe– nui nā ʻāina ʻino ma ka honua. No laila, ʻaʻole wau i manaʻoʻiʻo iā ia i kāna ʻōlelo ʻana makemake wale mākou e hoʻopau i ka honua mai kahi axis o ka hewa. No ka mea— ʻo lākou— ua nui loa nā ʻāina ʻino ma ka honua. A he mea ʻē aʻe kekahi. Nui nā wahi o ka honua e pono ai ka nānā ʻana no ka mea e ʻeha nā kānaka.
Inā mākou e noʻonoʻo i nā kānaka, a ʻo ke kumu paha mākou e hoʻopau ai iā Saddam Hussein, ʻo ia, ke mālama nei mākou i nā kānaka ma Iraq āna i hoʻokaumaha ai. A ʻoiaʻiʻo, pono kākou e mālama iā lākou. Akā, ua huki mākou i kahi laina a puni kēia ʻāina liʻiliʻi ma ka Hikina Waena a ʻōlelo mākou, "ʻO kahi kahi e hoʻomaha ai nā mea ʻino." A ke haʻalele nei mākou i ko mākou mau maka i ka make o nā miliona a me nā miliona o nā kānaka. ʻAʻole ia he mea hiki, ʻaʻole ia he mea like me Iraq me kahi mea kaua nuklea. Akā he ʻoiaʻiʻo kēia e hoʻomau nei. A he aha ka hana a ʻAmelika e pili ana i ka AIDS ma ʻApelika? Hāʻawi ia i kahi liʻiliʻi e kōkua i ka poʻe ma ʻApelika ʻoiai ʻo ia e kālele ana i kēia kaua ma Iraq.
BILL MOYERS: Inā maopopo iā ʻoe ua loaʻa a kokoke paha ʻo Saddam Hussein i nā mea kaua nuklea, e hoʻololi paha ʻoe i kou manaʻo?
HOWARD ZINN: ʻAʻole wau e hoʻololi i koʻu manaʻo e pili ana i ke kaua. ʻAʻole. ʻAʻole wau kahaha i ka manaʻo e hūnā paha ʻo Saddam Hussein i kāna mea kaua a pēlā aku. ʻO ka mea - he mea hoʻohenehene iaʻu - ke manaʻo nei mākou ʻo Saddam Hussein, ka mea i loaʻa paha kahi mea kaua nuklea, he mea hoʻoweliweli ia e koi ai i ke kaua koke.
No ka laʻana, loaʻa iā India a me Pakistan nā mea kaua nuklea a ua hoʻokokoke lāua ʻelua i ka hoʻohana ʻana a - maikaʻi, ʻaʻole mākou i hauʻoli e like me mākou - e pili ana iā Iraq. No laila - inā he mau mea kaua luku nui ʻo Iraq, a ʻo kēia - a eia hoʻi, ʻo kaʻu mea e ʻōlelo ai no ka CIA. A ʻaʻole wau e ʻōlelo maʻamau i nā mea mai ka CIA.
BILL MOYERS: ʻAʻole wau ʻike iā ʻoe e kau ana a puni ka hale ʻaina ma CIA.
HOWARD ZINN: ʻAʻole, ʻaʻole, ʻaʻole lākou e hilinaʻi iaʻu, ʻike ʻoe. Akā, ua ʻōlelo ka CIA e hiki mai ana ka hoʻohana ʻana i nā mea kaua o ka luku nui ʻia e Iraq inā kaua mākou. A ʻo ia ke kūpono. Ua puni loa ia e na enemi. Ua piha loa ʻo ia i ka mana koa ʻAmelika. ʻO ka manawa hoʻokahi e hoʻohana ai ʻo ia i kāna mau mea kaua inā e hoʻouka ʻia ʻo ia a ua makemake ʻo ia. I kēia manawa, he mea maʻamau kēlā. BILL MOYERS: He aha kāu koho i ke kaua? He aha kāu e hana ai - he hoʻomāinoino e like me ka mea nāna i hoʻomāinoino i kona poʻe ponoʻī.
HOWARD ZINN: ʻAe. ʻAe.
BILL MOYERS: Hoʻouka i kona mau hoalauna. Hooweliweli i ka Iseraela. He aha kāu e hana ai no ia mea?
HOWARD ZINN: ʻAe, ʻo ia, i kēia manawa, ʻaʻole ia he mea hoʻoweliweli i ka maluhia honua. ʻAʻole ia he pilikia a maopopo i kēia manawa. ʻAʻole ʻo ia e hoʻoweliweli i kekahi. ʻAʻole ʻo ia e hoʻouka ana i kekahi. ʻAʻole kēia ke ʻano o ke kūlana e koi ai i ka hana kaua. Ke manaʻo nei au, ua kūpono ka United Nations i ka wā i apono ʻia ai ka palapala hoʻohui o ka United Nations ma hope o ke Kaua Honua ʻElua. A e like me ka United Nations charter - ʻaʻole hiki i nā ʻāina ke kaua i nā ʻāina ʻē aʻe. Hiki iā ʻoe ke kaua i nā ʻāina ʻē aʻe, ʻike ʻoe, inā he hoʻoweliweli koke nā ʻāina ʻē aʻe. Inā lākou e hana nei i kekahi mea.
BILL MOYERS: Hiki iā ʻoe ke ʻōlelo ua hoʻolaha ka poʻe hoʻoweliweli i ke kaua ma ʻAmelika Hui Pū ʻIa i ka makahiki 1979 i ka wā i hopu ai ka poʻe Iranian extremists i ka ʻelele ʻAmelika a hoʻopaʻa pio ʻia no hoʻokahi makahiki. A laila, ua hoʻouka ʻia ka pā kaua ma Lebanona i luku aku ma kahi o 300 ʻAmelika.
Aia nā pahū ʻana o ka ʻelele ʻAmelika ma Nairobi a me Tanzania. Aia nā hana a Saddam Hussein e pepehi i ka Pelekikena Bush ma 1994 i kona hele ʻana i Kuwait. Hiki iā ʻoe ke ʻōlelo he lōʻihi ke kaua ʻana o nā mea hoʻoweliweli iā ʻAmelika Hui Pū ʻIa. A ua paipai ʻia lākou e kā mākou pane kūpono ʻole iā lākou, e manaʻoʻiʻo he tigers pepa mākou. A ʻo George W. Bush ka liʻiliʻi e ʻōlelo nei iā lākou, "ʻAʻole mākou he tiger pepa."
HOWARD ZINN: ʻAe. ʻAe, ʻike ʻoe, ʻaʻole mākou i pane maikaʻi ʻole. A ʻaʻole mākou i pane i nā manawa a pau– me ka hoʻomāinoino ʻole. Ua pane aku ka Peresidena Kilinetona i na hoopahu ana o na Emepera me na hoopahu ana. Me– ʻike ʻoe, e hoʻopāpā ana i ka Sudan. Akau? Pahū ʻana iā Afghanistan. Ua pane ʻo ia me nā pōkā a-
BILL MOYERS: A ʻo ka hahau ʻana i kahi hui lāʻau lapaʻau ma kahi o kahi pūnana hoʻoweliweli.
HOWARD ZINN: Pololei. A ʻo ka manaʻo ʻo ia - e hoʻoweliweli ʻia nā mea hoʻoweliweli - e makaʻu paha nā mea hoʻoweliweli inā mākou e hana ikaika? ʻAʻole. Aloha lākou. ʻO ia kā lākou makemake. Makemake lākou i ka hana ʻino. Makemake lākou i ka loaʻa ʻana o nā kumu hou aʻe e hana hoʻoweliweli hou aku. Ua hoʻoholo mākou i ka pilikia o ka poʻe pio ma Iran ma o ke kūkākūkā ʻana. Maopopo iā ʻoe? A- he nui nā kūlana kahi e komo ai mākou i ka hana ʻino a me nā kaua i hiki ke hoʻoholo ʻia e nā kūkākūkā.
BILL MOYERS: No laila, ʻo kou kūlana hiki iā mākou ke hoʻokaʻawale iā Saddam Hussein? ʻO kou kūlana paha e hiki ai i ke kaiāulu o ke ao holoʻokoʻa ke mālama iā ia ma ke ʻano e pale ai i kona lilo ʻana i mea hoʻoweliweli i ka honua a George W. Bush i ʻōlelo ai ʻo ia?
HOWARD ZINN: ʻAe, quarantine, ʻae, ma ke ʻano—o—o— ma ke ʻano e hoʻokaʻawale mākou i kekahi ʻāina - ua manaʻo mākou he mea hoʻoweliweli. He mea hooweliweli koke ia. A ʻo kēia ka mea i nalowale, ke manaʻo nei au, ma kēia kūkākūkā.
Aia kekahi poʻe, i ka wā i loaʻa ai i ka Soviet Union nā mea kaua o ka luku nui ma kahi pālākiō i ʻoi aku ka nui ma mua o nā mea i loaʻa iā Saddam Hussein, aia kekahi poʻe i ʻōlelo, ʻike ʻoe, Curtis Lamay (PH), nā Luna Nui o nā limahana. E hoʻokuke kākou i ka Soviet Union ma mua o kā lākou hana ʻana iā mākou. Maopopo iā ʻoe? ʻAe, he hiʻohiʻona weliweli paha ia. He ʻumi miliona a 100 miliona paha ka poʻe i make no ka mea ʻoi aku ka hewa o ka Soviet Union ma mua o Saddam Hussein. He hana lokoino i ʻoi aku ka nui ma mua o ko Saddam Hussein.
BILL MOYERS: No laila ke ʻōlelo nei ʻoe hiki iā mākou ke-
HOWARD ZINN: Ua kali mākou - A ma lalo o ka ʻili o kēlā hana ʻino, ua hoʻomohala ka poʻe i kahi kūʻē i ke aupuni, a hiki mai ka manawa i loli ai nā mea.
BILL MOYERS: Manaʻo nui ʻoe i ka hoʻoweliweli? ʻO ka hoʻoweliweli o ka hoʻoweliweli koʻikoʻi?
HOWARD ZINN: Manaʻo wau i ka hoʻoweliweli o ka hoʻoweliweli. ʻAʻole hiki iā ʻoe ke hoʻopau i kēlā hoʻoweliweli a hōʻemi paha i kēlā hoʻoweliweli ma ka pana ʻana i kahi ʻāina. Ma ke mele ʻana iā Afghanistan a me ka pepehi ʻana i nā kānaka he nui. ʻAʻole hana kēlā me ka hoʻoweliweli.
BILL MOYERS: Akā ʻaʻole ʻo Afghanistan kahi pūnana no ka hoʻoweliweli?
HOWARD ZINN: ma hea– aia kahi pūnana o ka hoʻoweliweli. ʻO ka mea e pili ana i nā pūnana no ka hoʻoweliweli ʻaʻole maʻalahi lākou e loaʻa.
BILL MOYERS: Akā me ka mahalo nui-
HOWARD ZINN: ʻAe?
BILL MOYERS: Inā ʻo ʻoe ʻo George W. Bush, manaʻo ʻoe ma hope o 9/11 ʻo ka hoʻouka ʻana i kahi i hele mai ai ka poʻe hoʻoweliweli he pale ponoʻī ia. ʻAʻole wau e ʻae aku iā ʻoe. Ke ʻōlelo wale nei au inā ʻoe i loko o kēlā-
HOWARD ZINN: ʻAe, manaʻo wau hiki iā ia ke hoʻohuli iā ia iho– ʻike ʻoe, manaʻo wau i ka poʻe ma Wakinekona-
BILL MOYERS: Ua hoʻouka ʻia mākou. No laila, e ka Peresidena– ʻike ʻoe, he haumāna ʻoe no ke Kumukānāwai– akā ʻo ka pale maʻamau ma laila. HOWARD ZINN: ʻAe, ʻoiaʻiʻo. Ua hoʻouka ʻia mākou, akā ʻo ka nīnau, ʻo wai ka mea i hoʻouka iā mākou? Inā hiki iā mākou ke ʻimi i ka poʻe i hoʻouka mai iā mākou a loaʻa iā lākou, hopu iā lākou, loaʻa iā lākou. ʻAe, ʻo ia ka pale ponoʻī. Akā inā hoʻouka ʻia mākou a ʻaʻole maopopo iā mākou ka mea nāna i hoʻouka iā mākou, a koho wale mākou i kahi ʻāina a mākou e manaʻo ai ua puka mai ka poʻe hoʻouka kaua, a laila pahū wale i kēlā ʻāina, ʻaʻole ia he pale. ʻO ia ka hana kolohe.
BILL MOYERS: Akā ʻaʻohe kānalua no kahi o Bin Laden.
HOWARD ZINN: ʻAe, akā ua like ia - ʻike ʻoe, ʻaʻohe kānalua ke peʻe nei kēia pepehi kanaka ma South Boston. No laila, e hoʻopā kākou i South Boston. Maopopo iā ʻoe? No ka mea, he mau hoaaloha nō paha ʻo ia ma Bosetona Hema e hūnā ana iā ia. E hoʻopā kaua iā Boston Hema. Hiki iā mākou ke pepehi i 1000 poʻe ma South Boston, a ma ke ala, ʻaʻole paha mākou e ʻike i ka mea pepehi kanaka. E kapa mākou i kēlā pale? ʻAʻole. Manaʻo wau he pono ke nānā pono ʻia kēlā ʻōlelo pale. Ua wehewehe ka United Nations Charter i ka pale a ʻaʻole ia e hahai ana i kahi ʻāina no ka mea ua hoʻouka kekahi iā ʻoe. Inā hoʻouka kēlā ʻāina iā ʻoe, a ke hakakā nei ʻoe, ʻo ia ka pale.
BILL MOYERS: Ua manaʻo paha ʻoe i kou wā e hoʻolei ana i nā pōkā ma ʻEulopa e pale ana ʻoe iā ʻAmelika Hui Pū ʻIa?
HOWARD ZINN: ʻAe, ʻoiaʻiʻo-
BILL MOYERS: A i ʻole civilization?
HOWARD ZINN: Civilization. Ua hana paha wau. Ua hana paha wau. Akā, he hihia pale maoli kēlā.
BILL MOYERS: He aha kou manaʻo ke hana ʻoe i kēlā mea?
HOWARD ZINN: E hoʻomanaʻo i kēia. Ke pana ʻoe, pahū ʻoe mai 30,000 kapuaʻi. A ʻeono mile i luna, ʻaʻole ʻoe e ʻike i kekahi poʻe. ʻAʻole ʻoe lohe i ka walaʻau. ʻAʻole ʻoe ʻike i ke koko. ʻAʻole ʻoe— ʻike ʻoe— ʻike i nā lālā i haehae ʻia mai nā kānaka. ʻIke wale ʻoe i kahi pahuhopu.
A ʻo ʻoe– ke ʻimi nei ʻoe i kēlā pahuhopu a ua hana hou ʻoe i kēia. Ua hoʻolei ʻoe i nā pōkā ma nā pahu hopu kahi āu i ʻike ʻole ai i ke kanaka - ʻo ia ke ʻano o ke kaua hou. A ʻo ia ke kumu e hiki ai ke pepehi ʻia ka heluna nui o nā kānaka– a– ʻaʻole lākou i hoʻopaʻa inoa ma ke ʻano he kanaka iā ʻoe. Pepehi ma kahi mamao. Manaʻo wau ʻaʻole ʻike nā kānaka nāna i hoʻolei i nā pōkā ma Hiroshima i ka mea e hana nei ma lalo. Ke pana wale nei lākou i kahi pahu hopu. No laila, ʻae, nānā au i ka pōkā a ke ʻimi wale nei au i kēia pahuhopu i ʻike ʻia noʻu e ka poʻe naʻauao ma mua o ko mākou hele ʻana.
BILL MOYERS: E haʻi mai iaʻu i ka mea i hana ma luna o Royan?
HOWARD ZINN: ʻŌ. ʻO ia kēia kūlanakauhale liʻiliʻi ma ka moana ʻAkelanika o Farani. A ʻo kēlā ʻike, manaʻo wau, pili i kēlā ʻano i ke kaua, ʻo ia hoʻi nā kaua maikaʻi aʻu i kūkulu ai ma hope o ke Kaua Honua II.
He kūlanakauhale liʻiliʻi ma kahakai ʻo ʻAkelanika o Farani a manaʻo mākou, ua manaʻo wau— me kaʻu pūʻulu poma ma East Anglia ma ʻEnelani, ʻaʻole mākou e lele hou i nā misionari. Ua kokoke e pau ke kaua. He mau pule mai ka hopena. Ua ʻike nā kānaka a pau i kēlā. A laila ua hoʻāla ʻia mākou i ke aumoe, haʻi ʻia mākou e hoʻopā i kēia kūlanakauhale liʻiliʻi. No ke aha mai? ʻAe, ua ʻōlelo lākou aia kekahi mau tausani koa Kelemania ma laila. ʻAʻole lākou e hana nei. E kamaʻilio e pili ana i ka pre-emptive.
BILL MOYERS: Ua haʻalele ʻia lākou ma hope - i kēia manawa ua holo nā Allies ma waena o Farani.
HOWARD ZINN: ʻOiaʻiʻo.
BILL MOYERS: A ua waiho ʻia kēia mau mea i loko o kahi ʻeke.
HOWARD ZINN: Pololei. Holo nā Allies ma waena o Farani a i loko o Kelemania. Pīhoihoi mākou i kēia mau koa Kelemania. Ke kali wale nei lākou ma ka lihi o ke kai, e kali ana i ka pau ʻana o ke kaua a e hoʻopā mākou iā lākou. A pēlā mākou i hoʻouna aku ai– a ʻaʻole au i ʻike i ka nui o nā poʻe pōkā.
He mea hoihoi ia, i kou wā e hana ai i ka pūʻali koa, ʻaʻole ʻoe e ʻike i ke kiʻi nui aʻe. Ua ʻike au e hele ana kā mākou mau pahu pahu 12 mai ko mākou kahua. ʻAʻole au i ʻike he 1200 mau mea pōkā e holo ana ma luna o kēia kūlanakauhale liʻiliʻi.
BILL MOYERS: He ʻumikūmālua haneli?
HOWARD ZINN: He ʻumikūmālua haneli mau pōkā. ʻAe, he 1200 mau pōkā koʻikoʻi, 1200 B-17 i hele ma luna o kēia kūlanakauhale o kekahi mau tausani Farani me nā tausani koa Kelemania a puni. A hoʻokuʻu mākou i ka mea a lākou i kapa ai - ʻo ia ka mea a lākou i haʻi mai ai iā mākou i loko o ke keʻena pōkole, e hoʻolei ʻoe i ka ʻaila jellied ma mua o kāu mau pōkā hoʻopau maʻamau.
Napalm. ʻO ia ka hoʻohana mua ʻana i ka napalm i ka hale keaka ʻEulopa. A—ua hana mākou i kēia. ʻAʻole au i noʻonoʻo ʻelua. ʻO koʻu manaʻo a hiki i kēia lā, ʻike wau– hiki iaʻu ke hoʻomaopopo i ke ʻano o ka hana ʻino e nā poʻe maʻamau. Maopopo iā ʻoe. ʻO ka mea i kapa ʻia ʻo Hannah Arendt "ʻo ka banality o ka hewa." Maopopo iaʻu pehea—no ka mea— ʻaʻole wau i noʻonoʻo. Ua hoʻomaʻamaʻa wale ʻia au e hoʻolei i nā pōkā. Aia ka ʻenemi, hoʻoholo ʻoe i ka hoʻomaka ʻana o ke kaua, ʻo lākou ka poʻe ʻino, ʻo ʻoe ka poʻe maikaʻi, a no laila hele nā mea a pau. A pēlā mākou i hana ai i kēia.
A no laila, ua luku mākou i ke kūlanakauhale ʻo Royan. Pepehi i na Farani, pepehi i na wahine, na keiki, i na koa Geremania. Lanakila. A ma hope wale nō - ma hope o Hiroshima a me Nagasaki wale nō wau i noʻonoʻo ai i kēlā.
A laila noʻonoʻo wau iā Dresden. A laila noʻonoʻo wau e pili ana i nā mea ʻē aʻe - ka pepehi kanaka kīwila i ke kaua. Pono ʻole mai ka manaʻo o ka lanakila ʻana i ke kaua. A manaʻo wau e hoʻomāinoino ke kaua i nā mea a pau e pili ana i ia mea.
BILL MOYERS: ʻO kou manaʻo ʻaʻole pono mākou e hakakā i nā kaua no ka mea e loaʻa ana nā poʻe kīwila?
HOWARD ZINN: ʻAe. (LAUGHS) ʻAe.
BILL MOYERS: He mea pacifist anei kēia?
HOWARD ZINN: ʻAʻole. I– I– pale au i ka huaʻōlelo pacifists. A ʻo ke kumu aʻu e pale aku ai iā ia - ʻo ia ka manaʻo o ka passivity. ʻO ia ka poʻe e manaʻo nei i ka pacifists e like me ka mea e noho ana a hana ʻole i kekahi manawa, ʻike ʻoe, e ʻimi paha, ʻoiai ke hele nei nā mea weliweli i ka honua. ʻAʻole. - Ke manaʻoʻiʻo nei au ʻaʻole hiki iā mākou ke noho wale i ka wā e hana ana nā mea weliweli. ʻOiai - aia nā hana ʻino. ʻOiai e pōloli ana nā kānaka. ʻOiai e make ana nā kānaka. ʻO koʻu manaʻo - ke manaʻo nei au - ke hoʻi hou nei au i ka ʻoiaʻiʻo o nā hana hoʻomāinoino politika e like me Iraq e hui pū ʻia me nā pilikia ʻē aʻe o ka honua i koʻikoʻi loa.
ʻO koʻu manaʻo, ʻoi aku ka nui o ka poʻe i make i kēlā me kēia lā o ka pōloli– i kēlā me kēia lā, ma mua o ka make ʻana i kēlā lā hoʻokahi, ʻike ʻoe ma ka Twin Towers. No laila, ʻaʻole wau— ʻaʻole wau manaʻoʻiʻo i ka passivity. Manaʻo wau e hana mākou i kekahi mea e pili ana i kēia mau pilikia. Akā, ʻaʻole pono kākou e hana i ke kaua.
BILL MOYERS: Pehea ʻoe e makemake ai iā mākou e hakakā i ka hoʻoweliweli?
HOWARD ZINN: ʻO kaʻu e manaʻo nei ʻo ia… A me kahi moʻolelo o ka hoʻohana ʻana i kēia mau pūʻali i ʻike ʻole ʻia ka nui o nā poʻe o ka honua iā mākou. No laila-e hoʻololi i kā mākou kūlana mai kēlā, mai kahi mana koa i kahi mana kanaka. Ua waiwai nui mākou. E hoʻohana kākou i kēlā waiwai e hoʻouna i ka lāʻau i ʻApelika. E hoʻohana kākou i kēlā waiwai e kōkua ai i ka hoʻololi ʻana i nā kūlana kaiapili a me ka hoʻokele waiwai a puni ka honua.
No ka mea, ʻoi aku ka ʻino o ke kaua ma mua o ka wā ma mua. He hopena ko ke kaua ʻaʻole hiki iā ʻoe ke wānana. ʻIke ʻoe? A - nā hopena i manaʻo ʻole ʻia. A me nā hopena hiki ʻole. A— no laila, manaʻo wau— manaʻo wau ua hiki mākou i kēlā wahi o ka mōʻaukala. Ma ka liʻiliʻi, makemake wau e noʻonoʻo ua hōʻea mākou i kēlā wahi o ka mōʻaukala kahi i pau ai ka manaʻo hiki iā mākou ke hoʻoponopono i nā pilikia me ka hana ʻino. A ke ʻimi nei mākou i nā ʻano hoʻonā ʻē aʻe. ʻAʻole pasif nā ʻano hoʻonā ʻē aʻe.
BILL MOYERS: No laila, eia mākou i kahi mau lā mai kēlā hoʻoholo a me ke kaua hiki. He aha kou manaʻo e hiki mai ana?
HOWARD ZINN: ʻAʻole maopopo iaʻu. He mea kākau moʻolelo au. ʻAʻole ʻike ka poʻe mōʻaukala i ka mea e hiki mai ana. Manaʻo lākou e like me nā mea ʻē aʻe. Manaʻo wau— hele paha mākou i ke kaua. ʻAʻole maopopo iaʻu. Ke paʻa nei au– ke hāʻawi mau nei i ka manaʻolana—e nānā ka Pelekikena a manaʻo ʻaʻole lawa ka hoihoi o ka ʻāina no ke kaua. A ke ʻike paha lākou i ka poʻe i make, ʻo ka liʻiliʻi o ka poʻe i make– ʻo koʻu paha– a laila ʻo ia ke ʻano e noʻonoʻo ai. Malia paha e emi ana koʻu waiwai kalaiaina ma mua o ka piʻi ʻana.
Malia paha e hoʻopiʻi ʻia au ma mua o ka mahalo ʻia. Makemake au e noʻonoʻo he mea hiki ia. Akā, manaʻo wau he mea hiki wale nō. Akā, ke hana nei ʻoe ma ke kumu - ʻaʻole i nā probabilities, akā i nā mea hiki. Inā ʻoe e hana kūʻē i ke kaua, ʻoiai inā manaʻo ʻoe e hele paha mākou i ke kaua, no ka mea, ua ʻike ʻoe i ka wā ma mua, aia kekahi mau manawa i manaʻo ʻia he mea hiki wale nō a hiki mai.
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