Source: The Real News
ʻO Greg Wilpert: ʻO ia ka Pūnaewele Nūhou maoli, a ʻo wau ʻo Greg Wilpert ma Arlington, Virginia. ʻO ka ʻaoʻao ʻākau loa o Brazil a he nui ka poʻe e ʻōlelo nei ʻo ka Pelekikena neofascist ʻo Jair Bolsonaro e hoʻomau i ka huli ʻana i ka uaki i ka wā e pili ana i ke ʻano o kāna aupuni e pili ana i nā kulekele ʻē aʻe a me nā kulekele kūloko. Ma ke alo o ke kulekele ʻē aʻe, ua ola ʻo Bolsonaro iā ia iho i ka wā e nānā ana i ka haʻi ʻōlelo a Pelekikena Trump ma hope o ka pepehi ʻia ʻana o ka General Qassem Soleimani o Iran ma mua o kēia mahina. Ma hope o ka pau ʻana o ka ʻōlelo a Trump, ua ʻōlelo ʻo Bolsonaro.
Jair Bolsonaro: [ʻōlelo haole 00:00:37].
Unuhi: Makemake au e ʻōlelo hoʻokahi wale nō mea. ʻO Mr. Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, ʻoiai ʻo ia ka pelekikena, ua hele ʻo ia a pale aku e ʻae ʻia kēlā aupuni e hoʻonui i ka uranium ma luna o 20%. ʻO ia no ka maluhia.
Jair Bolsonaro: [ʻōlelo haole 00:01:03].
Unuhi: E hoʻohui wale au i hoʻokahi mea. Pono mākou e hahai i kā mākou mau kānāwai. ʻAʻole hiki iā mākou ke extrapolate. ʻOiaʻiʻo, pono ia e lilo i ʻāpana o ko mākou ola i kēlā me kēia lā e makemake mākou i ka maluhia ma ka honua. Ke hai hou aku nei au, e Lula, i kona noho Peresidena ana, aia oia ma Iran a ua pale aku oia ia manawa me Mr. Ahmadinejad i ka hoonui ana o kela aina i ka uranium ma luna o 20% no ka maluhia.
Greg Wilpert: Ua ʻōlelo ʻo Bolsonaro i ke ʻano o ke aupuni hema hema o Pelekikena Lula da Silva i hoʻāʻo e kōkua i ka hoʻokumu ʻana i kahi kuʻikahi nuklea ma waena o ʻAmelika Hui Pū ʻIa a me Iran ma mua o 2009. i ka makahiki 2017, ua lawe ʻo Brazil i kahi kūlana o ke kākoʻo paʻa no Trump, no laila ke hoʻohuli nei i ka manaʻo kulekele ʻē aʻe o Brazil.
ʻO ka hui pū ʻana me aʻu i kēia manawa e kūkākūkā i ke aupuni Bolsonaro ʻākau loa ma Brazil ʻo Celso Amorim. ʻO ia ke Kuhina o ko nā ʻāina ʻē a me ke kuhina pale ma ka ʻaha Kuhina o ka Pelekikena Lula da Silva, a ua komo pololei ʻo ia i nā kūkākūkā ma waena o Brazil a me Iran i kēlā manawa. ʻO ia hoʻi ka mea kākau o ka puke Acting Globally: Memoirs of Brazil's Assertive Foreign Policy, i paʻi ʻia ma 2017 me Rowman & Littlefield. Mahalo i kou hui pū ʻana me mākou i kēia lā, e Mr. Amorim.
Celso Amorim: ʻO koʻu hauʻoli.
Greg Wilpert: Makemake wau e hoʻomaka me ka moʻolelo o ka mōʻaukala o ka hoʻohuli ʻana o Bolsonaro i nā mea āpau i hana ʻia ma lalo o Lula. Pili kēia i nā kulekele o ka honua a me nā kulekele kūloko, akā makemake wau e hoʻomaka me ke kulekele ʻē aʻe. I kēia mau lā, ua ʻōlelo maoli ʻo Lula e pili ana i ke kuʻikahi Iran ma kahi hālāwai ninaninau āna i alakaʻi ai me ka pūnaewele Brasil Wire a me Michael Brooks. Loaʻa iā mākou kahi kiʻi mai kēlā nīnauele a naʻu e hōʻike.
Jair Bolsonaro: [ʻōlelo haole 00:02:52].
Unuhi: Hoʻomanaʻo wau i koʻu hoʻoholo ʻana e hele i Iran. Ua hana ikaika ʻo Hillary Clinton i ka manaʻo. Ua kāhea ʻo ia i ka Emir o Qatar e noi ana iā ia e hoʻohuli iaʻu ʻaʻole e hele. Ua hōʻea au i Moscow a hui me Medvedev, a ua kāhea ʻo Obama iā ia e noi ana e kōkua mai iaʻu e hele ʻole no ka mea e hoʻopunipuni ʻia au.
Jair Bolsonaro: [ʻōlelo haole 00:03:10].
Unuhi: He kūlana ʻoluʻolu loa. He aha koʻu manaʻo? ʻAʻole i ʻae ʻia nā ʻāina waiwai, me ke kānalua ʻole e ka US State Department, i ka loaʻa ʻana o kahi protagonist ma ia wahi. I ko lākou manaʻo, ʻaʻole lawa ʻo Brazil e komo i loko o kahi pilikia o kēlā pālākiō.
Greg Wilpert: E hāʻawi mai iā mākou i kahi pōʻaiapili hou, e Mr. Amorim, no ke aha i hoʻāʻo ai ʻo Lula e komo i loko o ka hakakā ma waena o ʻAmelika a me Iran i ka makahiki 2009.
Celso Amorim: ʻAe, ʻaʻohe manaʻo kūikawā o Pelekikena Lula e komo i kēlā. He noi maoli ia na Pelekikena Obama, nāna [inaudible 00:04:02] ma Italia, i kahi hālāwai o ka mea a mākou i kapa ai iā G8 me ʻelima. He ʻelima mau ʻāina ulu i komo. I loko o kēlā hālāwai, ua hui pū ʻo ia me Obama. Aia wau i laila, ʻoiaʻiʻo.
ʻO Pelekikena Obama, ua ʻōlelo ʻo ia i ʻekolu mau mea e pili ana i kāna mau hana e hoʻoponopono i ka pilina me Iran. Ua ʻōlelo ʻo ia, "Ua kīkoʻo wau a ʻaʻole wau i kākau ʻia." ʻO ka lua, ua ʻōlelo ʻo ia ʻo ka pilikia o ka papahana nuklea ma Iran paha ka pilikia palekana koʻikoʻi ma ka honua i kēia lā. ʻO ka nīnau ʻekolu, ʻōlelo ʻo ia, "Pono wau i nā hoaaloha e kamaʻilio me nā poʻe ʻaʻole hiki iaʻu ke kamaʻilio." He ʻōlelo maopopo kēlā. Ke hōʻuluʻulu wale nei au, ʻoiaʻiʻo, no ka mea, he kamaʻilio ākea ia, he hapalua hola a ʻoi paha.
Ma hope koke iho o kēlā, ua loaʻa iā mākou nā ʻelele. Ua loaʻa iaʻu iho [inaudible 00:05:12], a ma hope aku i lilo i pelekikena o ka Carnegie Foundation, he luna kiʻekiʻe loa ma ka ʻOihana Moku'āina. Ua wehewehe lākou iaʻu i kahi ʻano ʻaelike e pono ai. ʻOiaʻiʻo, ʻaʻole ia he ʻaelike paʻa, he ʻaelike paʻa e hoʻoponopono ai i nā pilikia āpau. ʻO ia, e like me kā Pelekikena Obama i ʻōlelo hou ai ma kahi leka iā Lula, he ʻano hoʻoikaika hilinaʻi.
Ma ia hoomaopopo ana, ua hana makou. He moʻolelo lōʻihi loa ia i loko o ka puke, no laila ʻaʻole pono wau e haʻi hou aku iā ʻoe, akā ua loaʻa iā mākou ka mea pololei a ka Pelekikena Obama i noi ai. ʻAe, malia paha me kekahi mau ʻōlelo a Iran i manaʻo nui ai e pili ana i ke kaulike o nā mokuʻāina, nā mea e like me ia, akā ʻo ka ʻaelike, he ʻaelike hoʻololi maoli, nona nā mea ʻekolu, kūpono loa a hiki ke ana ʻia, ʻo ia ka nui o ka uranium i hoʻonui ʻia. Pono e lawe ʻia ma waho o Iran, ʻo ia ka mea e hele ai i kahi ʻāina ʻē aʻe… Aia kekahi ʻano nui, kahi ʻāpana, a me kahi mea manawa. ʻO ka mea manawa e hana koke ʻo Iran me ka kali ʻole no ka loaʻa ʻana o nā mea a lākou e loaʻa ai i ke kūʻai.
ʻO mākou pū me nā Turks, ma ke ala, i ka manawa ʻo ia ke Kuhina Davutoglu, i hui pū me Erdogan, ke kuhina nui, ma hope o ʻeono mahina o ke kūkākūkā ʻana a ʻoi aʻe paha, ua loaʻa iā mākou ka mea a Pelekikena Obama i noi ai. ʻAʻohe mea kānalua no ia mea, no ka mea, ʻekolu pule ma mua o ko mākou hele ʻana i Tehran, ʻo ka kipa ʻana a Pelekikena Lula i Iran, ua loaʻa iā mākou, a i ʻole ua loaʻa iā Pelekikena Lula a heluhelu wau i kahi leka a ka Pelekikena Obama kahi āna i hōʻike hou ai i kēlā me kēia kikoʻī i nā nīnau like. Ke haʻi aku nei au iā ʻoe. Ma waho aʻe o kēia mau ʻōlelo aʻoaʻo ʻekolu, aia kahi helu ʻehā o ke ʻano kūlana ʻoi aku ka hana, ʻaʻole pono ʻo Iran e hana i kēlā ʻaʻole wale ma kahi leka iā Brazil a i Turkey paha, akā pono e hoʻokomo ʻia i loko o kahi leka i ka Atomic Energy Agency ma Vienna.
ʻO ia ka mea i hana ʻia. ʻAʻohe kānalua. Ma kēlā me kēia helu, ua hana mākou i ka mea a Pelekikena Obama i noi ai iā Pelekikena Lula e hana. E haʻi aku wau i hoʻokahi moʻolelo pōkole. ʻAʻole ʻoe i nīnau, akā manaʻo wau he mea nui ia e nānā. Ma kahi o ʻehā a ʻelima mau lā ma mua o ko mākou haʻalele ʻana, ua kāhea mai ke Kakauolelo o ka Mokuʻāina ʻo Hillary Clinton iā mākou, a ua hoʻohui ʻo ia i ʻelua nīnau ʻē aʻe ʻaʻole i loaʻa ma laila. Hoʻokomo kekahi o lākou i kahi nīnau e pili ana i ka hoʻonui ʻana i ka 20%, a ʻo kekahi āna i ʻōlelo ai ʻo ia ka nīnau o ke kumukūʻai i hala, ʻo ka uranium waiwai a me ka uranium māmā i loaʻa iā Iran a pono e hoʻopau ʻia.
ʻŌlelo mākou, “ʻAe, maikaʻi kēlā. ʻAe mākou i kēlā. ʻAʻole mākou kūʻē. Akā ʻo ka ʻōlelo a ko mākou pelekikena, he hana hoʻoikaika hilinaʻi kēia a i ʻole ke ʻano o ka hilinaʻi ʻana, a ʻaʻole i ʻōlelo ʻia kēia mau mea ʻelua i ka leka a ko mākou pelekikena, a laila e like me kā mākou kelepona kelepona.
E pane wale i ka nīnau i haʻi ʻia e Pelekikena Bolsonaro. ʻO ka pahuhopu o ka ʻaelike, ʻo ia ka preempt Iran mai ka loaʻa ʻana o ka 20% uranium, no ka mea, ua ʻōlelo lākou ua pono lākou i kēia 20% uranium no kā lākou reactor noiʻi, i hana i nā isotopes no ka hoʻohana olakino a i ʻole nā mea lapaʻau ʻē aʻe. ʻO ia ke kumu a i ʻole ke kumu, ʻaʻole maopopo iaʻu, no lākou e hoʻomau i ka hoʻonui ʻana i ka uranium ma luna o ka pae 3 a 4%, no ka mea, ʻo ia ka pae i hoʻohana ʻia no ka uila uila. ʻO ke kumu o kā mākou ʻaelike, ʻo ia ka lawe ʻana aku mai Iran i nā kumu a lākou i makemake ai e loaʻa i ka 20% waiwai, no laila ua hewa loa kāna ʻōlelo. Ua haʻi aku kekahi iā ia i kekahi mea i maopopo ʻole iā ia, a i ʻole maopopo ʻole i kekahi.
Greg Wilpert: Makemake wau e noho me ka mōʻaukala o kēia ma mua o ko mākou neʻe ʻana i Bolsonaro. ʻO ia, no ke aha i manaʻo ai ʻoe i kēia ʻaelike a ʻolua a me Lula i kūkākūkā ai me Iran, no ke aha i hoʻokō ʻole ʻia ai i ka hopena? He aha kou manaʻo i hana ʻia?
Celso Amorim: ʻAe, manaʻo wau ʻo ke kūlana politika paha… ʻO ka mua, ua lōʻihi ka manawa. ʻAʻole maʻalahi ʻo Iran, a ua hana pū kekahi mau pūʻali koa ʻē aʻe ma ʻAmelika Hui Pū ʻIa. Ke kokoke nei mākou i ke koho balota waena. Loaʻa paha iā Obama kekahi mau mea nui e like me ka Obamacare a i ʻole. ʻO Hillary, ka mea aʻu i manaʻo ai ua manaʻo ʻo ia he pelekikena, aia paha ia i nā hui ʻē aʻe. ʻAʻole au makemake e hoʻohana i ka huaʻōlelo lobbyists, no ka mea, ʻaʻole maopopo iaʻu, akā ke haʻi aku nei au iā ʻoe ua manaʻo ʻia ʻeono mahina ma mua. ʻEkolu pule ma mua o ka hele ʻana i Iran, ua loaʻa iā mākou kahi leka na Pelekikena Obama e haʻi hou ana i nā helu.
I ka mākaukau ʻana o ka ʻaelike, i ko mākou hele ʻana mai me ka ʻaelike, ʻōlelo wau, aia ke ʻano o ka ʻōlelo ʻana ma ka ʻōlelo Pukiki, "ʻAʻole ʻo ia i heluhelu, ʻaʻole makemake ʻo ia." Nui ka poʻe, hiki iaʻu [inaudible 00:11:07] no ka laʻana ʻo Roger Cohen mai ka New York Times, ʻaʻohe mea aloha iā Ahmadinejad a i ʻole, ʻōlelo ʻo ia, "ʻAe, ke hoʻololi ʻia nei nā pahu pahu." Hiki iaʻu ke ʻōlelo i kahi ʻōlelo mai Mohamed ElBaradei, ka mea i noho pelekikena o Vienna, ka International Atomic Energy, nāna i ʻōlelo, "ʻAʻole hiki iā lākou ke lawe i ka ʻae no ka pane," no ka mea ua hāʻawi pololei mākou i ka mea i nīnau ʻia.
Manaʻo wau aia kekahi mau kūlana kūloko. Manaʻo wau aia paha kekahi pilikia me ka ʻoiaʻiʻo ʻo Brazil a me Turkey, ʻelua mau ʻāina waena i hiki ke hana i ka mea hiki ʻole i ka P5 ke hana. ʻaʻole maopopo iaʻu. ʻO kekahi mau mea ʻē aʻe paha, e like me kaʻu i ʻōlelo ai. E noʻonoʻo ʻoe, ʻike wau mai nā ʻōlelo a Obama ua makaʻu loa lākou i ka hana kaua a ka ʻIseraʻela. ʻAʻole kēia [inaudible 00:12:17]. Ua hopohopo nui ʻo Obama i kēlā hiki. ʻO ia ke kumu i haʻi hou ai lākou i nā kūlana, no ka mea, manaʻo wau ua manaʻo ʻo Obama a me kona poʻe ʻaʻole e loaʻa kēia mau kūlana. Ua lōʻihi ka manawa e hōʻoiaʻiʻo ai iā Iran e loaʻa i ka nui o 1,200 kilos, e hoʻouna iā lākou i kahi ʻāina ʻē, inā ʻo ia ʻo Turkey, a e hana koke ia ma mua o ka loaʻa ʻana o ka [inaudible 00:12:49. ] no ko lakou reactor. ʻO nā mea a pau me he mea lā paʻakikī loa ka loaʻa ʻana, a ma muli paha o ia mea, ua kākau lākou i ka leka me ka manaʻo ʻaʻole e loaʻa iā mākou, akā ua loaʻa iā mākou. ʻO ia ka pilikia.
Greg Wilpert: Makemake wau e huli i ke kūlana o kēia manawa, i kēia manawa ua hoʻoholo ka hoʻokele Trump e haʻalele i ka ʻaelike nuklea Iran. E like me kā mākou i ʻike ai i ke kiʻi i ka hoʻomaka ʻana, ua hoʻopili maoli ʻo Pelekikena Bolsonaro me Trump ma kēia pilikia. I kēia manawa, no ke aha ʻoe e manaʻo ai, a ʻo wai kou manaʻo ʻo Brazil… ʻO ia hoʻi, ʻo wai ma Brazil e kākoʻo nei iā ia i kēia hoʻohuli kulekele a no ke aha?
Celso Amorim: ʻAe, ua kākoʻo ʻo Pelekikena Bolsonaro iā ia. Pela ka Islamic State, no ka mea, ua makau loa lakou ia Generala Soleimani. I kēia manawa, ʻaʻole au makemake e komo hohonu i kēlā. Ua ʻōlelo mua ka poʻe kālai'āina ʻAmelika a i ʻole ka poʻe kālai'āina US he hana kaua ia. ʻO ia ka hoʻoweliweli aupuni. He mea ʻole ia. ʻAʻole au makemake e komo i kēlā. Manaʻo wau ʻo ka mea liʻiliʻi loa e hana ai ʻo Brazil, inā ʻaʻole hiki iā ʻoe ke kōkua i ka hoʻopili ʻana, i ke kōkua ʻana i ka maluhia, ma ka liʻiliʻi e noho i waho no ka mea ʻaʻole kēia kā mākou kaua, e ʻōlelo wau, ʻoiaʻiʻo.
Manaʻo wau aia kahi pōʻino waiwai iā Brazil. He mea lawe nui ia i nā huahana mahiʻai o Brazil. Aia kekahi, e pili ana i ke ʻano o ka ulu ʻana o nā mea… ʻIke ʻia ʻaʻole lākou e ulu nei i kahi kūlana koʻikoʻi i kēia manawa, akā ʻaʻole mākou i ʻike. Aia paha ka pilikia ma ke ʻano o ka palekana no ko kākou ʻāina a me ko kākou lāhui. Ma ka liʻiliʻi loa, inā ʻaʻole hiki iā Brazil ke kōkua i ka loaʻa ʻana o ka maluhia, ma ka liʻiliʻi e noho i waho, ʻaʻole e kākoʻo i kahi bellicose, hana ʻino. ʻO ia koʻu manaʻo he pono ke hana.
ʻO Greg Wilpert: I kēia manawa, makemake wau e huli i kahi pilikia kulekele hou e like me ke ʻano o ke aupuni Bolsonaro, ʻo ia ka hoʻoholo a ka mea hoʻopiʻi ma Brazil e hoʻopiʻi i ka mea kākau moʻolelo ʻo Glenn Greenwald. Ke hoʻopiʻi ʻia nei ʻo ia no ka lilo ʻana i ʻāpana o ka hui kalaima a no ka hack ʻana i nā kelepona o nā luna aupuni. I kēia manawa, ua hoʻāhewa nui ʻia kēia hana a puni ka honua, a ma Brazil hoʻi, ma ke ʻano he hoʻouka ʻana i ke kūʻokoʻa o ka paʻi. I kēia manawa, pehea e komo ai kēia hoʻouka kaua ʻana iā Greenwald i loko o ka pōʻaiapili nui o ka papahana ʻākau loa o ke aupuni Bolsonaro? ʻO ia hoʻi, pehea ʻoe e ʻōlelo ai ʻo Bolsonaro, a he aha nā hiʻohiʻona kulekele ʻē aʻe āu e ʻōlelo ai ma laila e hōʻike ana i kahi paheʻe i loko o nā kulekele ʻākau loa a kekahi e kapa ai he neofascist?
Celso Amorim: E waiho mai ia'u e like me ka'u i ike ai. ʻAʻole wau makemake i ke aupuni Bolsonaro. ʻAʻole au makemake i kāna kulekele ʻē aʻe. ʻAʻole au makemake i nā mea he nui āna i hana ai, akā i kēlā hihia, he luna kānāwai ka mea e hana nei. Manaʻo wau ua ʻoi aku ko mākou pilikia ma Brazil. Ua heluhelu paha ʻoe ua hoʻokuʻu ʻia ke kākau ʻōlelo o ka mahiʻai no ka mea ʻoiaʻiʻo [inaudible 00:16:08] hoʻokahi ʻōlelo. Manaʻo wau aia kahi manaʻo e komo i ka Nazi, nā waiwai kūpono loa e kahi ʻāpana ikaika o ka hui Brazilian, a he mea weliweli loa kēia a hopohopo loa.
Manaʻo wau i kēia luna kānāwai… ʻO wau iho, ʻaʻole wau i ʻike, akā ʻaʻole wau i manaʻo ua loaʻa ʻo ia i nā kauoha a Bolsonaro. Malia paha, akā ʻoiaʻiʻo ua hoʻāʻo ʻo ia e ʻoluʻolu iā Bolsonaro, he mea ʻino loa ia no ka mea ʻaʻole pono nā luna kānāwai e ʻoluʻolu i kekahi. Pono lākou e hana i ka pono. No laila he ʻino loa, akā ʻo kaʻu mea e makemake ai e koʻikoʻi ʻo ia ka mea ma mua o Bolsonaro. Aia kekahi māhele ikaika o ka hui Brazilian, e hana ana ma ka media, e hana ana ma hope o ka lono hoʻopunipuni, ka poʻe e manaʻo nei ʻo ka poʻe komunista, ʻaʻole au i ʻike i hea, ke hoʻouka nei lākou iā Brazil, Venezuela, a pēlā aku, a me nā mea a pau.
ʻAʻole kēia he mea e lawe māmā ʻia. Manaʻo wau he mea minamina. Manaʻo wau he ʻoiaʻiʻo, ʻaʻole kūlike me kā mākou kuʻuna ponoʻī o ke kūʻokoʻa o ka paʻi. ʻOiaʻiʻo, ua ʻae ʻo Bolsonaro iā ia no ka mea ua hana ʻo ia i nā ʻōlelo kūpono ʻole no kahi pelekikena o kahi ʻāina e ʻōlelo nei he demokala. Akā, e nana, Brazil ma ka olelo o ka haole kulekele e ho'āʻo ana e hoʻokokoke Trump, a me Europa e like me Hungary a me Polani ikaika, e ho'āʻo e pale aku i ka Kristiano a i ko lakou manaʻo Karistiano ku e aku i na hoomana a me na kanaka e ae. ʻO kēia ʻano e hoʻohui i nā mea o ka manaʻo Nazi me ka racism, me ka xenophobia, me ka inaina i nā kāne kāne a me ka hoʻokae ʻana i nā wahine, hele pū lākou a pau.
Ma ka nīnau o ka ʻaelike Iran, ma kahi o hoʻokahi a me ka hapa makahiki ma hope mai, ua lilo ka ikaika o ka ʻIseraʻela i mea nui e pili ana i ʻAmelika Hui Pū ʻIa e hana pūʻali koa kūʻē iā Iran ʻo ia kekahi o nā mea nui loa… Ua kākau ʻo Anne-Marie Slaughter i nā ʻōlelo aʻoaʻo koʻikoʻi iā Hillary Clinton, i kahi ʻatikala ma ka Financial Times kahi i hoʻopau ai ʻo ia, "Malia paha ʻo kēia ka manawa no mākou e nānā i hope i kēlā manaʻo Turkish-Brazilian."
Greg Wilpert: ʻAe. Ma kēlā ʻōlelo, pono mākou e waiho i laila i kēia manawa. Ke kamaʻilio nei au iā Celso Amorim, ke kuhina mua o Brazil no ko nā ʻāina ʻē a me ka pale ma lalo o ka Pelekikena Lula da Silva. Mahalo hou, e Mr. Amorima, no kou hāʻawi ʻana mai iā mākou i kou manawa makamae i kēia lā.
Celso Amorim: Mahalo iā ʻoe. Mahalo iā ʻoe. He mea leʻaleʻa.
Greg Wilpert: A mahalo iā ʻoe no kou komo ʻana i ka Pūnaewele Nūhou maoli.
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